Large nursery stock JBP

[Hbhaska]

I purchased a large JBP from the local nursery at a bargain over the weekend. I’m planning on making this into a large bonsai, chumono/omono, over the period of next several years.
I really like the movement in the main trunk and there are plenty of side/low branches to work with.
The tree is very vigorous and I removed some of the candles right away. I’m planning on pruning undesirable branches, such as the one in red, but because these will be major cuts, I will perform them right before next spring. I plan to develop the thickness of the main trunk and therefore let the leading top branch grow untouched (green line) for a few years. Comments and suggestions please. Thank you

 

[Shibui]

I would not class any of those branches as major cuts. I would be removing some of those excess branches sooner rather than later. Where several strong branches grow at a whorl the trunk is really likely to thicken and create reverse taper. The sooner they are gone the better. Of course that does not matter on branches you plan to remove later.
The lower trunk is not really clear but it looks like there is a long, straight section. You plan a larger tree so maybe that will fit in OK?
Definitely agree with your plan to grow this out for a while. That lower trunk needs to thicken quite a lot to support a larger size bonsai.

Maybe you should also consider starting to develop some ramification in the lower branches you intend to keep. I assume you realize the problems associated with bare branches on pines?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Where several strong branches grow at a whorl the trunk is really likely to thicken and create reverse taper. The sooner they are gone the better.

I second this suggestion. This tree has been grown freely. It has leggy growth and long internodes. In a perfect world, you would maintain some low, thin branches and develop them as your eventual bonsai, while letting ONE other main branch run free as a sacrifice.

 

[Tidal Bonsai]

Check out Jonas’ blog Bonsai Tonight. He has posted his process for developing black pines in great detail over the years.

 

[Hbhaska]

I would not class any of those branches as major cuts. I would be removing some of those excess branches sooner rather than later. Where several strong branches grow at a whorl the trunk is really likely to thicken and create reverse taper. The sooner they are gone the better. Of course that does not matter on branches you plan to remove later.
The lower trunk is not really clear but it looks like there is a long, straight section. You plan a larger tree so maybe that will fit in OK?
Definitely agree with your plan to grow this out for a while. That lower trunk needs to thicken quite a lot to support a larger size bonsai.

Maybe you should also consider starting to develop some ramification in the lower branches you intend to keep. I assume you realize the problems associated with bare branches on pines?

Thank you. I can certainly remove larger branches to prevent reverse taper but is this time of the year ok to cut? Won’t there be too much sap bleeding? I suppose I can always apply cut paste but I was worried about doing too much work on the canopy during peak growing season. If I cut the candles/branches to develop ramifications, I will be sure to leave two buds for ramification next season. Because this is a two-flush pine, I expect a second growth of buds.

could you shed some light on bare branch issues on pines? I don’t think I’ve come across reading up or hearing about it from anyone. Thank you.

 

[Hbhaska]

Check out Jonas’ blog Bonsai Tonight. He has posted his process for developing black pines in great detail over the years.

Thank you. Yes, it’s one of my favorite blogs.

 

[Hbhaska]

Going to experiment with this pine. The goal is to thicken the trunk and make it big by planting it in the ground. Based on some excellent ideas from discussions between Ryan Neal and Telperion farms’ Chris Kirk/Gary Wood, you allow the tree to grow by removing last years needles in June. Then you can do pruning in September. The leader is grown tall, undisturbed for several feet for several years.

For anyone interested in field growing, I highly recommend this podcast.

‎Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry on Apple Podcasts

‎Arts · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Shibui]

All trees have spare dormant buds at the base of leaves. If the growing leader is destroyed the tree can survive by activating the buds and develop a new growing point.
Most people understand that deciduous trees can still activate thos e dormant buds even long after the leaves have gone - 'buds from bare or old wood.'
Many conifers including many pinus species seem to lose the ability to activate the dormant buds after the leaves have fallen. If JBP is pruned to an area with no needles buds rarely develop on the bare section which just dies back to a lower healthy branch or shoot. If cut where there are no lower needles the whole tree usually dies. We use this strategy to get rid of feral radiata pines over here. Just chop the trunk with a chainsaw below the lowest branch and walk away. Simple, quick, effective and no chemicals required.
More frustrating when developing bonsai though. Long, bare sections offer no opportunities for pruning like deciduous. Pruning must be to a lower growing branch or healthy needles if you expect shoots. Grafting can be used to add new growing points to bare sections that won't bud but it is far easier to manage the lower growth to maintain viable and useful shoots where they will be needed while allowing one or more sacrifice branches to escape to provide the thickening impetus.
JBP will sometimes bud on younger bare branches when pruned hard. Chances of buds on bare sections diminishes with the age of the wood and buds on bare older wood are really rare.

I prune at all times of the year and have never seen pines bleed over here. Not sure whether that's climate dependent or whether the story is Old Wives tale? Conversely, maples bleed profusely if I prune in early spring where you don't seem to have that problem. Solstice is past so I suspect you should be past peak growing now anyway.
Don't overestimate the power of wound sealer. I have never been able to stop bleeding with it. The oozing sap just lifts it off and keeps coming.

 

[Hbhaska]

Many conifers including many pinus species seem to lose the ability to activate the dormant buds after the leaves have fallen. If JBP is pruned to an area with no needles buds rarely develop on the bare section which just dies back to a lower healthy branch or shoot. If cut where there are no lower needles the whole tree usually dies.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. All of this makes sense and your experience certainly shows. With respect to inability of JBP to back-bud after the needles are removed, I’m a little confounded. Gary Wood from Telperion swears that on a healthy, growing JBP, there will be plenty of back budding after you remove previous years needles, not the current year candle growth, when this is performed in June (in the US). He says that when you cut back in late Spring, you will still get back budding but you are affecting the vigorous growth of the tree. Instead, he suggests removing previous years needles in June, wait for the new buds to grow in the summer and then prune or cut. The idea behind this is to induce the tree to back-bud and thicken the trunk, without compromising the vigor. He also talks about the balance of auxin, cytokinins and sugars and how they affect vigor and back-budding.

With respect to the die backs, I think it makes sense not to prune hard when there are no needles in the lower part of the branches. Also, I think decandling can be stressful to the tree as well. In fact, decandling the whole tree in one session is not recommended by several folks including Jason from Easternleaf. They suggest doing the lowest branch first, wait 10 days, do the middle branches, wait 10 days and finally do the upper branches. At this point, I’m not interested in getting ramifications so I’m probably not going to worry too much about candle cutting, especially the leader. I will wait to see if there are back-budding and then prune.

Because my goal at this stage is for the tree to increase in trunk size and back-bud, I’m going to see if I can accomplish both using Gary Wood technique. The worst that can happen is that I get no new growth in the lower part of the branch. Then I will just wait till next year for new candle/growth to emerge and I will cut back or remove the whole branch. This will be an experimental tree for sure.

 

[Shibui]

Your info about back buds on on previous season wood is correct. This appears to work reliably only on very young wood. The older the section the less reliable budding becomes.
I was not aware of removing needles to induce buds so I will do some experiments allowing for the different months/seasons. I do not think that buds will appear on (what was) the bare neck of any branch section so budding will probably still be limited to the upper part of any section.
My strategy is to allow the shoots to grow for up to 2 seasons. This gives good growth and thickening. Then prune back to the lowest healthy needles (which will be 2 years old). Budding from the base of the needles is usually profuse. No need to pull needles but it must be done before the needles start to die off in mid summer. Pruning this way in late summer or winter will give rise to strong new spring candles. pruning in spring will give slightly shorter new shoots and pruning in summer gives shortest replacement shoots. Similar results to decandling.

 

[Shibui]

With respect to the die backs, I think it makes sense not to prune hard when there are no needles in the lower part of the branches. Also, I think decandling can be stressful to the tree as well. In fact, decandling the whole tree in one session is not recommended by several folks including Jason from Easternleaf. They suggest doing the lowest branch first, wait 10 days, do the middle branches, wait 10 days and finally do the upper branches. At this point, I’m not interested in getting ramifications so I’m probably not going to worry too much about candle cutting, especially the leader. I will wait to see if there are back-budding and then prune.

The decandling method you outlined is an older version. I'm sure there are some still using it as they are familiar with the process and results. I'm pretty sure the staggered removal was never about stress. ll pruning causes stress. It does not matter much whether it is staggered over different sessions or all at once. Successive decandling is a strategy to equalise the growth over the tree. Lower areas are cut first to give the resulting shoots longer to mature so they will be stronger and longer. Later cut upper (naturally strong) areas have a shorter grow period so the new shoots will be smaller resulting in more even strength over the entire tree. Decandling should be paired with needle removal and bud selection to get good results.

Many growers have switched to a single decandling where all candles are removed at the same time. This is much easier to remember and to implement. Differences in strength are managed through more selective needle removal and selective shoot selection in autumn.
Both methods work and seem to work equally well when implemented correctly.

 

[Hbhaska]

The decandling method you outlined is an older version. I'm sure there are some still using it as they are familiar with the process and results. I'm pretty sure the staggered removal was never about stress. ll pruning causes stress. It does not matter much whether it is staggered over different sessions or all at once. Successive decandling is a strategy to equalise the growth over the tree. Lower areas are cut first to give the resulting shoots longer to mature so they will be stronger and longer. Later cut upper (naturally strong) areas have a shorter grow period so the new shoots will be smaller resulting in more even strength over the entire tree. Decandling should be paired with needle removal and bud selection to get good results.

Many growers have switched to a single decandling where all candles are removed at the same time. This is much easier to remember and to implement. Differences in strength are managed through more selective needle removal and selective shoot selection in autumn.
Both methods work and seem to work equally well when implemented correctly.

Thank you, Shibui. You are absolutely right, the staggered cuts are indeed made to balance the tree. Many folks swear by cutting the medium vigor candles first, high vigor candles last and not prune low vigor candles at all. I thought that that made sense. Good to know that it is an outdated method.

 

[Adair M]

Also, I think decandling can be stressful to the tree as well. In fact, decandling the whole tree in one session is not recommended by several folks including Jason from Easternleaf. They suggest doing the lowest branch first, wait 10 days, do the middle branches, wait 10 days and finally do the upper branches. At this point, I’m not interested in getting ramifications so I’m probably not going to worry too much about candle cutting, especially the leader. I will wait to see if there are back-budding and then prune.

Just so you know, Jason from Easternleaf is a very nice guy, but he’s not very good at JBP.

From your post, I can tell that you’re confused about the role of decandling, and the techniques involved. A lot of thus comes from trying to learn from too many sources.

The best way is to find one good source, learn everything from that source, learn to master and replicate their results, THEN once you understand how what you’re doing affects your trees, THENseek out alternatives for additional enhancement.

 

[Hbhaska]

Your info about back buds on on previous season wood is correct. This appears to work reliably only on very young wood. The older the section the less reliable budding becomes.
I was not aware of removing needles to induce buds so I will do some experiments allowing for the different months/seasons. I do not think that buds will appear on (what was) the bare neck of any branch section so budding will probably still be limited to the upper part of any section.
My strategy is to allow the shoots to grow for up to 2 seasons. This gives good growth and thickening. Then prune back to the lowest healthy needles (which will be 2 years old). Budding from the base of the needles is usually profuse. No need to pull needles but it must be done before the needles start to die off in mid summer. Pruning this way in late summer or winter will give rise to strong new spring candles. pruning in spring will give slightly shorter new shoots and pruning in summer gives shortest replacement shoots. Similar results to decandling.

Thank you again for your thorough response. Lots of good ideas and options here.
As a side note, My wife and I would love to come check out your nursery in Australia some day! Beautiful trees, you have.

 

[Shibui]

The best way is to find one good source, learn everything from that source, learn to master and replicate their results, THEN once you understand how what you’re doing affects your trees, THENseek out alternatives for additional enhancement.

In addition I believe it takes several years for any technique to show good results. Choose one and stick to it for 2-3 years before trying out a different method on that tree. Changing from one technique to another may actually hamper progress.

As a side note, My wife and I would love to come check out your nursery in Australia some day! Beautiful trees, you have.

If we ever decide to let you lot back in you would be welcome here. I just need some notice so I can rearrange work schedules so I can be home.

 

[Hbhaska]

2021 late winter/early spring update. Repotted into a wood training pot. Had cut off side branches from the sacrifice branch in winter. Letting the sacrificial branch grow out as long as it wants to thicken the trunk. Will feed heavily this year and further work on the lower branches will depend on how the tree responds in spring. There’s a tree somewhere in there.

 

[BuckeyeOne]

Just a thought. I could be wrong.
Reduce the root mass a little bit.
I would plant a little deeper. It needs to develop its base more before going in a shallow pot.
I'm sure others will chime in.

 

[Hbhaska]

Just a thought. I could be wrong.
Reduce the root mass a little bit.
I would plant a little deeper. It needs to develop its base more before going in a shallow pot.
I'm sure others will chime in.

Good suggestion. I have plenty of feeders so I’m not worry about the tree not making it. May add more soil for this season and go shallow the next.

 

[Shibui]

I would just top the pot up with more soil and mound it up a little to bury the roots. The current mound of roots will soon fuse into a solid extension to the trunk. Lateral roots that grow from that section will be the nebari. I think it looks like there are a few thin roots circling the trunk. Best to get rid of those now before they thicken or make marks on the trunk.

 

[Hbhaska]

I would just top the pot up with more soil and mound it up a little to bury the roots. The current mound of roots will soon fuse into a solid extension to the trunk. Lateral roots that grow from that section will be the nebari. I think it looks like there are a few thin roots circling the trunk. Best to get rid of those now before they thicken or make marks on the trunk.

Thank you, Neil. Will get rid of the small circlers and add more soil.