Large Overgrow Corkbark Chinese Elm Huge Trunk! Newbie to Bznut and New to Bonsai Any Suggestions or Help Appreciated

[jbhampton31]

Hey everyone just joined this site have been reading a while though... I started bonsai last yr and joined MABK a bonsai club in Kingsport TN first started by Mr. Warren Hill whom I understand is ill and never had opportunity to meet or learn from him. However there are members of the club who have been extremely helpful in my in helping me develop bonsai skills.. I purchased and was also gifted several older trees from a club member's widow. Among these trees I have a couple large Tridents that are big but have gotten tall and many other wonderful trees that need to be retrained into bonsai shape. The one I feel will be the biggest project is this beatiful Large Chinese Elm. When i got it the tree was in an anderson flat and rooted into the ground fairly deep. I brought the tree home and it would not stand up... This was mid spring this yr..I had to stake the tree and up pot to large nursery pot 10 gal maybe? I took 2 airlayers off that were growing straight upward (1 successful the other maybe) but this tree has alot of places it just starts growing straight up. The tree now stands up right on it's own in the nursery pot on its own. I now have it set up for winter but this tree is very over grown and will have to be brought back slowly and finding the best way to do that and reduce scaring the decidous tree with large wounds. Fellow club members are advising me to bring to a meeting sometime next year when we hope to find someone to come and do a workshop and I will. I just figure this is my 1st post to this page and I have been reading for a while but just signed up. I will put as many pics as I can up and any advice will be helpful. The tree has been healthy as a horse all summer even back budding on old wood. Thank you!

 

[BrianBay9]

Wow that's quite a trunk you've got there. Your main goal now is to select a front and trunk line. Everything will need to be shortened, giving you lots of opportunities for more air layers if you wish. It's always hard to make suggestions from photos only, but assuming you keep the same planting angle, I see something like this:



Those vertical trunks and the main trunk extension to the left could be air layered. Being an elm, you'll certainly have lots of options pop for new branching. You should have a lot of fun with this one!

 

[queenofsheba52]

Hi @jbhampton31 , glad you found this great Bonsai community!

Yes that is 1 big trunk for sure! I like the idea that Brian suggested, but others might pop in with more ideas.

 

[SilverCeder]

These things backbud like crazy! You could go any direction you want with that! Have fun!

 

[BobbyLane]

Over the years I never much looked for styling opinions from others, I can see how it can help though. I prefer to scour my vast database of trees I like, that have similar characteristics of the material I have, both bonsai and real trees. So my database came up with this Siberian elm from a UK grower, thats just one idea, not easy work tho. One trunk line is another option. Most hobbyists on the forum will sway towards a one trunk line option, because thats what most bonsaists like. So in my opinion you kinda cut yourself short when asking rather than first understanding what it is you like, what styles you like, stuff like that. Take it to a club and youll likely get the same answer, 'cut everything off' and make it a 'bonsai' and you wont hear about any other possibilties or options.

 

[jbhampton31]

Over the years I never much looked for styling opinions from others, I can see how it can help though. I prefer to scour my vast database of trees I like, that have similar characteristics of the material I have, both bonsai and real trees. So my database came up with this Siberian elm from a UK grower, thats just one idea, not easy work tho. One trunk line is another option. Most hobbyists on the forum will sway towards a one trunk line option, because thats what most bonsaists like. So in my opinion you kinda cut yourself short when asking rather than first understanding what it is you like, what styles you like, stuff like that.

yea with being new to things I like to get a variety of ideas and then decide, a club member once told me listen to everyone and take their opinions don't disagree or anything just listen and then do what you want to. I like that pic you posted could be a good option. No matter what I realize this is going to be a long term project. I will end up taking it to a workshop in the end though to get the best outcome. I have several other large trees that need to be worked back as well 2 large Tridents. A Katsura with 2 dead trunks 1 live trunk and a 2nd Katsura in the same pot need to determine how best to carve it down since carving isnt a good idea on decidous trees. It is a Katura not a Katsura Maple. I think the elm with be the best project though. So I am here to get as many ideas and help as I can to make informed decisions. Thank you to at everyone for the kind comments.

 

[nuttiest]

I prefer to scour my vast database of trees I like, that have similar characteristics of the material I have, both bonsai and real trees.

I always wonder how you do that, and how many fields you can sort by

 

[BobbyLane]

I always wonder how you do that, and how many fields you can sort by

I'm a simple man, either from memory or in my downloads folder on laptop or uploads on FB

 

[queenofsheba52]

Wow, that's an amazing memory you have!

 

[jbhampton31]

here are some pictures is have of these 2 tridents i have need to figure where to cut them back to in spring and start bew development on them as well...everything is all up for winter now though.

 

[Shibui]

One of the big problems with online styling advice is that the people giving the advice only have some 2D photos to work from. It can be very difficult to see front to back bends in a photo and that makes it hard to decide whether the branches and/or a[ex you've chosen really go in the desired direction.
@BrianBay9 appears to have picked a really attractive trunk line but when I look closer it appears that the first branch is angled strongly toward the back of the tree which is not great design. Maybe it could be pruned or bent forward? Maybe I'm not seeing the directions properly? maybe a new branch will sprout that comes forward to act as first branch?

Always ground truth any internet styling advice on the actual tree in real 3D life before making changes.

Good, clear pictures from 4 or more sides and similar height with a plain background can help viewers get a better picture of the real bends and directions in trunk and branches.

 

[jbhampton31]

Yes It has been difficult to get good clear pictures of these trees because of their overall size. I do have a background that works well for pics on my smaller trees and makes the tree shapes easier to see. But on these 3 trees in particular The Elm and the 2 Tridents the dont fit in the background board i have made. And partly I guess what i am asking here is just general knowledge when it comes to cut backs on large trees like this. When you make big cuts on Elms and Tridents how long does it take for wounds to heal, and any other info that would be useful to know. From people with a lot more experience than I have. I don't plan on making any of these big cuts soon they are down for winter but when spring get's here our club is hoping to get a workshop set up with a pro who can help with designs on this and other members projects.

 

[jbhampton31]

Also back to @BobbyLane's point about not looking to others for styling options... This is in my opinion one of the hardest things even when it comes to styling raw nursery stock, I have a hard time finding the "bonsai tree" in the material. Most trees I have styled on my own so far end up as some kind of informal upright as that is about the only style is can see. And I have watched hours of online videos from Ryan Neil, Bjorn, Peter Chan, John Geanangle and many others. This to me is one of the hardest thing as a beginner is seeing the finished product in the tree in front of you.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

It sounds like you have a very good resource in your local club members so I would rely on their first hand advice and not as much on what long distance advisers offer.

 

[BobbyLane]

Also back to @BobbyLane's point about not looking to others for styling options... This is in my opinion one of the hardest things even when it comes to styling raw nursery stock, I have a hard time finding the "bonsai tree" in the material. Most trees I have styled on my own so far end up as some kind of informal upright as that is about the only style is can see. And I have watched hours of online videos from Ryan Neil, Bjorn, Peter Chan, John Geanangle and many others. This to me is one of the hardest thing as a beginner is seeing the finished product in the tree in front of you.

Yes whats helped me in the early days was being a member of a few forums and studying progression threads, seeing how raw material was taken from A to B. Searching the net for similar material and seeing what people with more skill set than me, did with the material, storing images. Looking at wild trees, because more often than not, you'll find wild trees that look very similar to bonsai, especially the more natural 'tree like' bonsais. Having lots of different material to work on and constantly working on trees, not being afraid to make mistakes.
So supposing I had this tree in the early days, I would of been googling Elm bonsai like mad, and I would of been building up these images in my head of how I'd like my Elm to look.

 

[BobbyLane]

This isnt really a very good picture because from this view the red circle looks like one heavy branch, but from the other side its clear that its actually two branches very close together?

 

[jbhampton31]

This isnt really a very good picture because from this view the red circle looks like one heavy branch, but from the other side its clear that its actually two branches very close together?

yes 2 branches close. and what a major concern is of how the tree will handle big cuts. That junction is part of where you can see it just all strarts moving straight. Thanks for the link to your image gallery that looks like it will be a great tool thank you!

 

[Shibui]

Chinese elms have no problem with big cuts. They usually produce lots of buds all around exposed cambium at the cuts so you can be pretty confident you'll get some possible branches around most cuts.
Tridents also generally have no problems with large cuts but only sprout new shoots from nodes, even if the nodes have disappeared as the trunk gets older. The older the trunk the more random back budding becomes but there's still a pretty good chance of getting some buds somewhere below a chop. I tend to 'chase growth back' on older maples. Cut back to the lowest shoots or visible buds. Feed well and hope for lower buds then in a few years chop to the lowest shoots again if necessary. Takes longer but saves disappointment when one won't shoot after a hard reduction to older wood.

In all species, the healthier a tree is the better the back budding after pruning.

How long for as chop to heal is like a piece of string. Scars healing over is a factor of how much the tree grows to produce new wood. Younger trees heal quicker. Trees that grow a lot above the chop heal quicker. Both Chinese elm and Tridents can heal quick but may not if you restrict growth. Large chops are best made when you still intend to allow lots of growth rather than the final stages when you are restraining growth to develop ramification.
In my experience cuts definitely heal quicker when the cut is covered - bonsai wound sealer, commercial wound dressing, alfoil and other covers have been used successfully. Anything that stops the developing callus drying out is suitable.

 

[BobbyLane]

yes 2 branches close. and what a major concern is of how the tree will handle big cuts. That junction is part of where you can see it just all strarts moving straight. Thanks for the link to your image gallery that looks like it will be a great tool thank you!

Two branches very close together as these are never really looks good, the easy decision you can make at this point will be to cut off one of two, keeping the one with the most character, movement, nodes or buds. Then step back and look at it again. This can be done at anytime on Elms, seal the wound if it makes you feel better. Wont be long before these trees are budding back out again, early March for many species like Elm, Hawthorn, Maples even.

Graham potter working on a multi trunk Chinese elm, he explains here how to pick branches with character and movement during the pruning process. These videos helped me massively, this one was published 6 years ago, ive watched it so many times, I feel like you need repetition to really absorb things properly. A lot of people will watch these educational videos once and think they sussed it but will be back on here within a few months asking the same questions.

 

[jbhampton31]

Thank you yes will definitely check out this video... The VP of my club told me to watch the Ryan Neil detailed wiring video atleast 2x a year until I can teach it.