Larvae in fertilizer. Are there insecticides to avoid them?

fredman

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Not true, nothing remains sterile for long. Wait a week and the bacterial action to decompose will begin. It is not necessary
Bacterial activity don't mean the nutrients are in plant usable form. You need much more organisms to complete the process.
 

fredman

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Even inorganic mix has abundant microbes and macro decomposers turn up to help
Again you need the right ones to make it a viable eco system that will break it down to a plant usable form. Those critters that are "turning" up, are only feeding themselves...not the plant.
 

River's Edge

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Bacterial activity don't mean the nutrients are in plant usable form. You need much more organisms to complete the process.
Believe what you wish, I have always had excellent results with organic fertilizers in inorganic Bonsai soil without additives. Simply natural activity over time. The results speak for themselves outside of the laboratory.
 

River's Edge

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Relax friend, no need to go there...
What exactly do you feed?
For organic, I make up a mix of Neem Meal, Blood Meal, Bone Meal and Alaska Brand liquid fish fertilizer. Apply it in a variety of ways, tea bags, granular just below surface, mixed into the soil for long term planting and non disturbance situations.
For variety and convenience I use apex plus, a slow release osmocote type product. On occasion I use dilute fish fertilizer by itself for weak or recovering plants. General purpose young nursery stock, 14-14-14 osmocote slow release.
I make a point of using calculated amounts for specific situations in recognition that less is often more in this aspect of horticulture.
 

fredman

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WoW it seems i've been wrong...very proud and glad to say that cause it answers a question i've been struggling for a long time.
I'm talking to the soil scientist (Ian Hunter) that had the interview about organic bonsai with Ryan Neil. Very exciting. So far this is what he said when I asked him about microbes in inorganic soils...
"Microbes live in the recesses of the pumice and Akadama. They naturally exist in most material on earth.
Ideally they are added deliberately through the use of compost and/or innoculum.
They feed off organic material and replicate".
Just waiting on a answer on my last email...so i'll be back.
 

fredman

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For interest sake, this is what he added...
"To keep things simple bacteria and fungi are the primary decomposers. They mine the rock (aka parent material) that is full of minerals as well as the organic matter breaking down in the soil.
Think natural ecosystem at first (like a forest floor) for simplicity sake.
Then the Protozoa, nematodes and microarthropods consume bacteria and fungi. These larger trophic levels have a higher carbon to nitrogen ratio.
So they’re really hunting carbon.
Because bacterial have a 5:1 C:N ratio and fungi 25:1 the higher trophic levels with a 50:1 or great C:N end up with excess NItrogen and phos and all the other macro micro nutrients.
They excrete this material and that material is directly available to plants.

To answer your other question, inorganic soils have very low diversity.
They need the additions. Forest or grasslands are set to go and yes all the porous spaces within the soil, on the clay particles and organic matter is where all these microbes live. Thus, better soil structure adds to not only water holding and nutrient holding capacity, but serves as more cavities for microbes to dwell."


For me..I want the whole spectrum of microbes in my inorganic soils to ensure a balanced diet to the tree. Sustainability is of utmost importantance. We need to remember when we put down some organic substances on the soil, we're not feeding the tree...we're feeding the microbes. Certain beneficial ones don't just turn up. They need to be added.
Although its all part of the learning experience, I think I still need to apologise if I took some with on the wrong track with me....:)
Also to the OP original question about the larvae. Those critters are just part of what happens when organic matter breaks down. They have no interest in the tree as such. They'll either be moving along or be eaten by something else....and DON'T put any insecticides in with your organic fertilizers. That will move down into the soil and kill off the microbes to.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Again you need the right ones to make it a viable eco system that will break it down to a plant usable form. Those critters that are "turning" up, are only feeding themselves...not the plant.
I want to add that all of these critters, especially larvae, have intestines filled with microbes that originate from soils and those microbes have evolved to spread through these critters.
Some biologists wholeheartedly believe that complex multi-cellular organisms have only evolved with a single purpose: to feed microbial colonies.
Kill one type of microbe, and the critter might not even survive. Bees for instance depend on a fungus producing a hormone for them to develop, feed the bees some antibiotic and the hive will die within a generation. The fungus itself can only live and survive inside a bee colony. Then who is serving who? That's more of a philosophical question. Ants are another great example.
If we can use worm castings to spice up the soil with microbial activity, why wouldn't that be just as possible with different critters?
Take a look at any plain old mushroom in the woods, there's hundreds if not thousands of insects and other critters gnawing on it, taking the spores with them. It might look like they're feeding themselves, and the insect might believe that too, but it could just as well be a trick; the fungus makes itself appetizing for that insect simply because it relies on it to spread its spores. Or even better; the bacteria converting feces/organic nutrients give off chemical signals to insects that dinner is ready, as a trick to get a VIP flight ticket to the next meal.

I don't want to rev up the discussion, but it's food for thought. And part of our own thoughts are directed by microbial activity as well.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0380-x
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0634-9
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110517110315.htm

Pretty extensive article:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.201400071

If you think that any complex organism in the world is eating only to feed itself, you might very well be very wrong ;-)
 

fredman

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The most fascinating thing for me about the microbe/nutrient/plant relationship is that there is a fully functioning eco system going on in and around the root zone (similar to an animal eco system in a jungle for instance).
The plant is in full control of what nutrients it want. The microbes work to feed the plant whenever the plant sends the signal. In turn the plant feeds the microbes by releasing exudates...it really is astonishing.
 

Colorado

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The most fascinating thing for me about the microbe/nutrient/plant relationship is that there is a fully functioning eco system going on in and around the root zone (similar to an animal eco system in a jungle for instance).
The plant is in full control of what nutrients it want. The microbes work to feed the plant whenever the plant sends the signal. In turn the plant feeds the microbes by releasing exudates...it really is astonishing.

Have you tried using commercially available bagged compost products for your compost tea? I guess I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work just as well as homemade compost....

I’m not confident enough (yet) in my own compost to put it on my bonsai trees, so looking for an alternative.
 
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I think I'll use worm castings. Since this is already fermented compost, it will not rot and attract flies. Yes, maybe the larvae is good, but when a bonsai pot becomes a breeding ground for a large number of flies and larvae is at least unpleasant (do Japanese nurseries like flies in their bonsai? Or do they have special fertilizer cakes?). Also, I feed them for free, but they don't give anything in return. Although their excrements may be of some value as fertilizer, but this is a reason for study.
 

fredman

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Have you tried using commercially available bagged compost products for your compost tea? I guess I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work just as well as homemade compost....
My rose bonsai started going south this past season. I have it in pumice and aged pine bark (Osmocote on the top covered with a thin layer of sphagnum moss). Leaves were yellowing and it didn't want to flower. I eventually scraped the top layer off and put a layer of commercial bagged compost on (its all i had at that stage). On top of that I put a thin layer of composted wood chips.
I only gave it fish hydrolysis from there on. It recovered within a month with new leaves and started flowering. Lush green leaves that i haven't seen on it before.
I then did it with all my bonsais. Will replant everything come spring in a organic mix with my home made compost at the heart of it.
The thing about commercially made compost is you don't know how it was controlled when it was made. It might've gone dry and/or anaerobic. It might contain harmful pathogens. You don't know how long, or if, it has been aged. The aging process is critical because that's when the full spectrum of microbes populates the pile.
Then again, it might be a well made compost filled with humus and all the beneficial microbes needed.
Point is...you don't really know.
A good compost shouldn't be black. It should be dark brown and smell like a forest floor. Should be kept at the right moisture level to. If it dried out, some species might die off while others will go dormant.
I haven't made compost tea yet, although what i've learnt from research is, not all compost teas are equal. The thing about tea is it has to be done right. Assuming the compost does contain a full spectrum of microbes, its not that simple and straight forward to get them into the tea. They thoroughly attach themselves with slime (the same slime that's on your tongue and teeth) to the aggregates within the compost. To loosen them, keep them alive and get them into the tea alive and well, is another process that has to be done right. Done wrong, you'll end up with nothing but muddy water. They are very fragile creatures. The water has to be aerated and agitated just right. Sounds complicated but it really isn't. The right research has been done and is out there. When adding tea to a substrate, you're really only inoculating that substrate with the microbes. They still need a suitable habitat to survive and thrive. What they need most is organic matter and food.

I think I'll use worm castings. Since this is already fermented compost, it will not rot and attract flies. Yes, maybe the larvae is good, but when a bonsai pot becomes a breeding ground for a large number of flies and larvae is at least unpleasant (do Japanese nurseries like flies in their bonsai? Or do they have special fertilizer cakes?). Also, I feed them for free, but they don't give anything in return. Although their excrements may be of some value as fertilizer, but this is a reason for study.
Yes worm castings is an excellent way to inoculate the soil. Again, once they are in there, they need to be kept happy before they can thrive, and the tree can reap all the benefits. Best (and only way really) way to do that is to give them organic matter. They live in it and feed off it.
Again everything comes back (and starts), to the good compost. Once that is in the soil and the microbes are fed and happy, the eco system looks after itself, and can be self sustaining. The ONLY thing we need to do is give the microbes a small amount of supplementing food now and again.
I'm thinking about your larvae again. I think the solution is, to not put the soy meal onto the soil...just work it in slightly. That way the chances of something laying an egg in there is slim. Very little meal is needed to. We tend to over fertilize out of love. We always need to remember...we're feeding the microbes and they are microscopic. The food takes a longish time to break down yes, but also lasts a long time as food for the tree...up to 4 months. So a schedule of a little bit every 2 months makes sense to me.
I don't know what the Japanese has in their cakes. They've been doing organic bonsai for as long as bonsai itself exists..... They've been, where we're going :p
 
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Ali Raza

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I want to add that all of these critters, especially larvae, have intestines filled with microbes that originate from soils and those microbes have evolved to spread through these critters.
Some biologists wholeheartedly believe that complex multi-cellular organisms have only evolved with a single purpose: to feed microbial colonies.
Kill one type of microbe, and the critter might not even survive. Bees for instance depend on a fungus producing a hormone for them to develop, feed the bees some antibiotic and the hive will die within a generation. The fungus itself can only live and survive inside a bee colony. Then who is serving who? That's more of a philosophical question. Ants are another great example.
If we can use worm castings to spice up the soil with microbial activity, why wouldn't that be just as possible with different critters?
Take a look at any plain old mushroom in the woods, there's hundreds if not thousands of insects and other critters gnawing on it, taking the spores with them. It might look like they're feeding themselves, and the insect might believe that too, but it could just as well be a trick; the fungus makes itself appetizing for that insect simply because it relies on it to spread its spores. Or even better; the bacteria converting feces/organic nutrients give off chemical signals to insects that dinner is ready, as a trick to get a VIP flight ticket to the next meal.

I don't want to rev up the discussion, but it's food for thought. And part of our own thoughts are directed by microbial activity as well.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0380-x
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0634-9
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110517110315.htm

Pretty extensive article:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.201400071

If you think that any complex organism in the world is eating only to feed itself, you might very well be very wrong ;-)
Well Explained.
 

fredman

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Work it into the top layer of the soil, or cover it with some wood chips or something. When organic matter lies on soil it might slightly heat up at the intersecting layer, making it a good environment for a passing critter to lay its eggs in.
 
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fredman

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That intersecting layer between the soil and the organic substance being used, is where the action is when it comes to microbe activity. I can well imagine its a micro environment in itself. The better contact between the two the better for me. A tea bag casing for instance, would add a unnecessary obsticle I have to get around, if I were a microbe looking for food...:D
 
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