Late fall pruning

BuckeyeOne

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So, I have always pruned the majority of my landscape trees in late fall, early winter after all foliage has dropped and the trees are beginning dormancy. I might do a quick pruning of winter kill in spring.

I have in excess of 25 trees that I have treated this way for almost 20 years and all are very healthy. From Dogwoods, Redbuds, JM's, Magnolias and many another species.

Can I use this practice with my pre-bonsai, or should I say Want to be pre-bonsai? Wouldn't want to offend!!

Buck
 

rodeolthr

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This is probably climate dependent, but FWIW, I cut back all of my Japanese maple pre bonsai after leaf fall. This is usually sometime in early November in my area.
 

kouyou

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+1 for what @penumbra said

there is no advantage to pruning (or wiring) japanese maple branches in late fall or winter as opposed to spring or summer, but there are potential disadvantages.

there is now general consensus that spring 'bleeding' does not matter, despite the myth that is still in circulation

the same applies to japanese maple bonsai, pre-bonsai, and landscape specimens whether potted or in ground
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I noticed you are in the vicinity of the south shore of Lake Erie, which normally means Ohio, or perhaps a small section of New York State. Climate is similar to mine.

The answer depends on on how much pruning? And exactly when you prune? And also there are some species specific answers.

In general with broadleaf deciduous trees, there is the summer work, which can include drastic pruning. This pruning will include trunk chopping, major branch removal and all the activities of styling. This includes defoliation. This usually happens anytime from a month or so after the Spring Equinox to about 12 to 14 weeks before your average first frost. It is important to do this work early enough in summer that there is sufficient time to mature new growth so that it is winter hardy. In our zone 5 & 6 you need to be done with this work by July 15 if your average first frost is October 15. If you do drastic pruning after July 15 there is always the risk your tree will not be winter hardy by the average first frost date.

Then there is late summer deciduous work. This is for Zone 5 & 6 for North America from beginning August 1 thru September 1. This is the period where light pruning, less than 20% can be done. Don't over do it, as you don't want to stimulate the tree to break a lot of new buds and new growth that will not have time to mature before first frost. This is also the time period were you can begin repotting Chaenomeles, Diospyros, and other trees that prefer to be repotted in late summer. You can, depending on your level of horticultural experience repot other deciduous trees at this time if you did not get to them in spring. I do a lot of my repotting at this time of year, this topic was covered in several ''Summer Repotting Posts". This is also the time for partial defoliation and wiring. Get sun into the interiors of dense trees, so that the sun can help induce new buds to form before winter. Wiring does not have to happen now, but if the opportunity is available you can begin wiring at this time. Less likely to break branches than earlier in the summer or spring.

The Autumn Equinox marks the beginning of Autumn, I usually don't do any branch pruning until after the first frost. The danger with pruning after the early summer time is the stimulating new growth that won't have time to harden off before first frost. Once the ground, and or pots are frozen - yes I just plop a bunch of my trees on the ground and forget them for the winter. Once the tree has been knocked into full dormancy you can prune to maybe the 25% of existing foliage and not fear ''waking the tree up''. But it is possible, if you over prune after first frost that you might lessen winter hardiness, so either error to the less than 20% side, or protect from cold trees pruned drastically in autumn. While leafless it is an excellent time to wire trees. This is the ideal period for wiring deciduous.

Late winter, early spring, as growth is just beginning, is another good period for wiring and pruning. Many will do their drastic pruning at this time. I don't usually take advantage of this window of opportunity, but that is due to my schedule. The farm monopolizes free time from late winter to end of harvest, end of July.

I store most of my trees for the winter without any temperature protection, if it is -25 F or -32 C outside, my trees are -25 F or -32C. I tend to grow zone 5, zone 4, and zone 3 hardy trees at my zone 5b home or at my zone 6a farm. Trees that are only hardy thru zone 6, I will shelter out of the wind and sun. Maples, amur maples, native maples also get sun protection and wind protection, but not temperature protection. My trees that are only hardy to zone 7 or into, parts of zone 6 go into a frost free, below ground well house where the winter temperature is constantly between +32 F to + 40 F, or 0 C to + 4 C. If you are going to protect your trees to the point where they will stay above freezing, the above dates become less critical, because if protected, winter hardiness is not needed, then you can have a wider latitude as to when you finish certain phases of pruning and or root disturbance.

I think I outlined a general deciduous plan, that will work well for elms, maples that are not Japanese maples, Malus, Chaenomeles, Amelanchier, and others. @Owen Reich is a member here and much more knowledgeable than myself on deciduous care, bonsai care in general. If Owen disagrees, or corrects some points follow his lead, and I'll correct my notes. I was working from off the top of my head.

Remember, individual species have their own quirks.
 

BuckeyeOne

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@Leo in N E Illinois and @0soyoung . Great info!! Thank you. @Leo in N E Illinois I am on the west side of Cleveland.

Typically my late fall/early winter pruning is kept at a minimum at just to remove any suckers, leggy or crossing branching. Usually no more than 10% if that.

I was always led to believe that my pruning timing was preferred. Learn something every day. I'll have to adjust my schedule to fit the advice given.

Thanks again!
 

Forsoothe!

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+1 for what @penumbra said

there is no advantage to pruning (or wiring) japanese maple branches in late fall or winter as opposed to spring or summer, but there are potential disadvantages.

there is now general consensus that spring 'bleeding' does not matter, despite the myth that is still in circulation

the same applies to japanese maple bonsai, pre-bonsai, and landscape specimens whether potted or in ground
I disagree with everything. You choose when to prune or wire based upon your desired outcomes and/or which conditions you want to avoid. Wiring in spring, or having wire in-place in spring fixes branch positions by holding the new, green growth, as it comes into existence. It is effective, but can only be in-place for a short time to avoid wire marks. Wiring in autumn holds the branch in place while it is lignifying. That is the process of the last growing season's cellulose growth layer becoming rigid as it dries out as sap stops flowing up the tree, and the layer of lignin, -the dark rings of trees impermeable to water (sap), seals off that layer. That new layer becomes "woody" as it dries out. Wiring in autumn can be in-place for Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, and most of Mar and/or April, depending upon latitude & altitude, not marking at all while the tree is dormant. Regardless of when applied, wiring must be carefully watched in spring as buds and dry branches inflate with sap to avoid wire marks which are especially noticeable on smooth bark trees like Maples. Four to six weeks on the rapidly growing trees of springtime is a long time. Compare 4 to 6 weeks to 6 or 7 months and 4 to 6 weeks. Wire marks scream "Man-made", the kiss of death on the ~natural~ appearance of trees.

The sap that runs in spring is not just water. It is the complex mix of compounds manufactured by the leaves and stored in the roots from the prior late summer and fall. Any action that allows it to flow out of an open hole in the tree is akin to having a leak in your gasoline tank. The fluid is valuable, and while you may not actually run out of gas because you can refill the tank before you run out and the tree can replace the sap, it is a matter of which serves your interest better? Spilling fluids you can replace, or utilizing every drop you have, AND refilling your tanks, too? Choose your poison.

You choose what, where and how you trim in autumn or spring. If done in autumn, the tree will re-direct hormones and re-assign secondary buds to primary or leaders if at the end of the branch, and re-assign tertiary buds, reserve buds that would not have opened, to secondary (is back-budding). When trimmed in spring, less reassigning occurs as a function of just how fast the tree can adjust to the new condition it finds itself in, meaning less back-budding. Maybe, spilling the existential fluids have a role in this? Choose your poison...

Potted trees are at a distinct disadvantage for storage of sap from the previous season when compared to trees with complete, uncut root systems in the ground.
 

Maloghurst

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I like to rely on scholarly papers. Here is one on this topic.

btw, you don't have to wade through the text unless you want to. The insight is mostly in the introduction and conclusions.
Seems according to this winter is no good. Assuming your winter is below 55F. I agree.
+1 for what @penumbra said

there is no advantage to pruning (or wiring) japanese maple branches in late fall or winter as opposed to spring or summer, but there are potential disadvantages.

there is now general consensus that spring 'bleeding' does not matter, despite the myth that is still in circulation

the same applies to japanese maple bonsai, pre-bonsai, and landscape specimens whether potted or in ground
Trees can bleed to death if you prune them hard enough at the right time with the right species. My experience has shown me that if you drastically prune a tree at the wrong time it will leak too much sap, even through the cut paste for a long time. If it continues leaking then eventually it will die. That sap is what should be pushing new growth so if it’s all flowing out of a major chop instead of growing branches and leaves it can die.
I am strictly talking about major chops. Last March I opted for early spring to do major chops on 7 trees of different varieties. The results were interesting so I might start a thread on that experience. But a Crusader Hawthorn definitely bled to death. While others struggled with various results.
If the sap has branches and buds to flow into and is therefore able to compartmentalize a wound then it won’t die from leaking. Like with structural pruning. Or even taking a large branch off, if the tree has other branches etc.
Personally I’m sticking with fall for structural pruning and I’m going to try any drastic pruning in mid-late spring after the first flush has hardened and the trees growth is in a lull.
I’ve read posts from a respected member here that does all his major pruning at this time and it made sense.
I’ve done a number of drastic pruning in late fall or late winter and I have had bad results for wound healing. The study @0soyoung seems to confirm this.
 

kouyou

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there is now general consensus that spring 'bleeding' does not matter, despite the myth that is still in circulation

Trees can bleed to death

simply for the sake of keeping fair records on this thread for posterity, i would recommend that others search the keyword "bleed" on this forum, and read what very respected and experienced members have to say on the subject

yet another discussion on this topic is not necessary here
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@BuckeyeOne - ah, the Western Shore - I gave a talk to the Western Shore Orchid Society about 12 years ago. I been back to the Greater Cleveland O. S. several times, but I need to remind the Western Shore O.S. that I'm still working the orchid talk circuit.

Notice most of my timing is in an effort to keep winter hardiness. There is a distinct difference between a tree in the landscape and a tree in a pot. If you store your trees in a temperature controlled space, where temps do not go much below freezing and stay under 40 F or 4 C, you can pretty much get away with more work in winter.

Landscapers prefer to prune in winter in part because you can see what you are doing. With trees planted and established in the ground, winter is not as large an issue. Physiology doesn't change, but roots in the ground experience much slower temperature changes than roots in a pot. And once roots are more than one inch below the soil surface, temperature changes slowly over multiple days or weeks, rather than hours for a tree in a pot. This lessens the stress of winter sufficiently that winter pruning is not as likely to cause major issues.

I prefer to leave my trees outside, without temperature protection because particularly Japanese Maples are prone to breaking dormancy in the well house a few weeks to a month too early. This locks me into doing the ''in and out dance'', and JM in particular are sensitive to full sun as they are opening. I burnt up several of my JM by putting them into too much sun during this period, because my landscape trees have not leafed out yet. So because I leave trees out, I am more cautious about when I prune.

Corollary, those in zones 7 and warmer - because their winters are more mild, they can get away with less concern for winter hardiness. We, in zone 5b and 6a, have less than a 120 day growing season, some years probably closer to 100 days. Those guys further south, zone 7, have a growing season nearly a third of a year longer, somewhere near 200 or more growing days.

So for a number of reasons the ''landscape rules'' don't exactly apply to potted trees, especially trees in small, shallow pots.
 

Maloghurst

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Trees can bleed to death if you prune them hard enough at the right time with the right species.
If your going to quote me at least use the whole sentence so the context is there.
simply for the sake of keeping fair records on this thread for posterity, i would recommend that others search the keyword "bleed" on this forum, and read what very respected and experienced members have to say on the subject

yet another discussion on this topic is not necessary here
I agree it’s not a discussion. But I feel my experience is on topic with this thread.
My experience is I chopped a healthy robust hawthorn 15” from soil level in early spring. One of 7 different variety of deciduous trees. The hawthorn steady leaked sap from the wound for 3 months before dying. I kept reapplying cut paste but it kept leaking through.
If I would have done this at a better time it would have compartmented the wound and pushed new buds.
Seemed to me like it bled to death.
 

Owen Reich

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I like to rely on scholarly papers. Here is one on this topic.

btw, you don't have to wade through the text unless you want to. The insight is mostly in the introduction and conclusions.
That article is interesting. I couldn’t tell why they were pushing the trees to 15 degrees C in the winter though on a Japanese maple wound. Unless it’s for grafting and priming the rootstock.
 

0soyoung

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That article is interesting. I couldn’t tell why they were pushing the trees to 15 degrees C in the winter though on a Japanese maple wound. Unless it’s for grafting and priming the rootstock.
You have the background to know the answer far better than I.

In my naivete I just speculate that it likely was just a matter of convenience for the experimenters. The objective of the work, I think, was to respond to a claim that it doesn't matter when pruning is done (or that the temperature doesn't matter). So they simply picked the temperature of their refrigerators and a warm temperature that they are sure would indicate an effect. It makes sense that this would be the temperature of a grafting greenhouse.
 

Forsoothe!

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I like to rely on scholarly papers. Here is one on this topic.

btw, you don't have to wade through the text unless you want to. The insight is mostly in the introduction and conclusions.
Alas and alack, it doesn't really apply to what we do, neither in bonsai nor landscape pruning. "Ten trees were wounded by inserting a 1-mm diameter nail ca. 1 cm into the stem at ca. 30 cm stem height on 20 December 2010, ∼2.5 months after leaf shedding." Cutting off a branch the same size, (3.2cm/1 1/4" dia) perpendicular to the grain exposes the open faucet we are discussing, very unlike sticking a ~1mm or #19 nail in and leaving it. (is really more like a finishing nail or long tack just barely deeper than the bark)

I think what we are discussing is just how much fluid lost to bleeding from a gaping wound is good, bad, or indifferent. In favor of winter pruning would be the two facts of very little fluids at the time of wounding and very few pests and pestilence active during winter verses lots of fungi sporing in autumn and too much bleeding in spring. All on a sliding scale of time-of-year by size-of-wound, of course. The winter wound would have time to dry and shut off vascular pathways by the time sap begins to flow, but there would be a concurrent lack of the "inhibitory compounds begin to be deposited in the xylem and living bark..." at that time.

Autumn wounds are damp, and I presume still able to react with, "inhibitory compounds begin to be deposited in the xylem and living bark...", hopefully before the fungi and bugs find the wound. There are spores in the air in spring, and bugs that are interested in Maples, or any given species, that travel up-wind searching for the specific odor of suitable bed & breakfast's. It's arguable whether spring or autumn would have the most species of bugs and fungi active, again, on a sliding scale of time.

The sap is hardly only, "water". It is the only source of minerals, et al, available to the plants as the component that contains the compounds used in photosynthesis to make sugars that the plant uses as food. Roots can't make sugars and leaves can't absorb enough minerals, et al, to live.
 

BuckeyeOne

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Autumn wounds are damp, and I presume still able to react with, "inhibitory compounds begin to be deposited in the xylem and living bark...", hopefully before the fungi and bugs find the wound.
This reinforces my practice of late fall pruning of ground planted trees.
The movement of the fluids has slowed enough to avoid "death by bleed", yet enough flow to allow the deposit of healing compounds in the xylem.
As to the transference of this practice to my potted specimens, I will move forward with caution until I can see evidence of healing prior to dormancy.

Thanks to all for the information and guidance!

Buck
 

Owen Reich

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I’m pruning Japanese maples this time of year in gardens; bonsai not so much. There are only a few species of deciduous plants I prune in fall, and generally only refined material.
 

sorce

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@0soyoung I didn't read the paper.....

But what about a natural "clotting" of sap.

What is the mechanism a tree uses to stop bleeding?

In the seven/eight years I have been paying attention to these trees, I have only witnessed one "bleed", an early spring chopped large yard tree. A pear I think.
Anything else, (only small handful maples) I've never witnessed any bleeding from ever.
Except Spruce, but not exactly to a detrimental level like folks speak, even slowly leaking all year.

That said....

I think people are more worried about possible bleeding than actually observing their trees for it.

I believe there is no reason to prune anything at anytime other than just before spring or summer growth. Leaving wounds that won't quickly heal is just foolish and should be minimized.

Fall pruning leaves tissue exposed to freeze thaw. However minute.
That wood WILL take on moisture and the wounds we want clean and small will expand and contract all winter. That's not leaving for pretty or an "Easy to close" wound. Of course, I speak of details small enough, some may not notice. But an extra 1/8th inch of healing tissue can break a small tree.

Plus that old moon......

Has anyone ever done a bleed study based on the moon?

I reckon they'll bleed less if pruned during the Waning moon and root growth.

More during the waxing moon when tops push.

Sorce
 

Maloghurst

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@0soyoung I didn't read the paper.....

But what about a natural "clotting" of sap.

What is the mechanism a tree uses to stop bleeding?

In the seven/eight years I have been paying attention to these trees, I have only witnessed one "bleed", an early spring chopped large yard tree. A pear I think.
Anything else, (only small handful maples) I've never witnessed any bleeding from ever.
Except Spruce, but not exactly to a detrimental level like folks speak, even slowly leaking all year.

That said....

I think people are more worried about possible bleeding than actually observing their trees for it.

I believe there is no reason to prune anything at anytime other than just before spring or summer growth. Leaving wounds that won't quickly heal is just foolish and should be minimized.

Fall pruning leaves tissue exposed to freeze thaw. However minute.
That wood WILL take on moisture and the wounds we want clean and small will expand and contract all winter. That's not leaving for pretty or an "Easy to close" wound. Of course, I speak of details small enough, some may not notice. But an extra 1/8th inch of healing tissue can break a small tree.

Plus that old moon......

Has anyone ever done a bleed study based on the moon?

I reckon they'll bleed less if pruned during the Waning moon and root growth.

More during the waxing moon when tops push.

Sorce
I wrote here about my experience with watching a crusader hawthorn bleed to death from early spring to May or June. Did not push any growth just leaked water for 3 to 4 months then died. It was a hard chop about 18” from soil. I did this with 8 different trees and they all suffered to varying degrees. I was a little late doing these chops but the moral of the story is there is a wrong time. I don’t know the best time but I know there is a bad time.
 
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