Late Summer/Fall Decandling

[Q-Bonsai]

There isn't a lot out there about fall decandling other than (Jonas Dupuich's blog) so I figured I would post something on here.

I decandled this black pine about two weeks ago. Houston has a long growing season so I fully expect the candles to extend by the time winter comes. Next summer, I will decandle back on schedule.

Since the tree was not candle pruned this year, and it was severely imbalanced, I pulled needles to balance the tree. Prior to and after the decandling, I fertilize heavily. The buds are starting to emerge rather evenly throughout the tree with the exeception of a couple of branches that have yet to start budding.

I also did a lot of branch work including some heavy bending and wiring. Let's see how much these can tolerate with attentive care...

(I didn't rotate the pictures of the buds but you get the idea)

 

[Adair M]

Interesting.

The buds I see all look to be needle buds rather than adventitious buds.

As I understand the "fall" technique, it is supposed to be done late enough in the season so that buds will form, but not extend until the following spring.

However, your growing season is longer than most, and I have heard some people are able to do two decandling a year.

I have never tried anything like this. Hope it works out!

Thanks for posting!

 

[Q-Bonsai]

Interesting.

The buds I see all look to be needle buds rather than adventitious buds.

As I understand the "fall" technique, it is supposed to be done late enough in the season so that buds will form, but not extend until the following spring.

However, your growing season is longer than most, and I have heard some people are able to do two decandling a year.

I have never tried anything like this. Hope it works out!

Thanks for posting!

You are correct, I was looking for more adventitious budding. Since it seemed healthy and wasn't decandled this year, I figured I would try something new. I work from home so I have the luxury of tending to my trees very carefully. If I were still at a 9-5 job I would not have done so much to it. It seems as though lots of sun and frequent misting is keeping it happy. I am hopping to have the candles fully extend by November.

I am excited about this one. With a few more adjustments, careful tending, and time, I think this is going to make a great tree (if I don't do anything completely bone headed and kill it). Plus it's pretty big which adds to the appeal

 

[Neli]

I have done that before and posted it here, but I would not do any other work on the tree to minimize stress, and let it concentrate on back budding.
Did not get much back budding on the branches though...or not as much as I would have liked.

 

[markyscott]

Q -

Nice tree, Q. I talked about fall decandling in Houston on this thread:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...-something-new-with-this-cork-bark-black-pine

I decandled in August - kind of a normal time for us, but late for Northern California from which the tree had come the previous winter. On that tree, it just set buds and did not send any summer candles. I skipped decandling the next year as well as it was living on two year old needles during the next growing season.

Scott

 

[sorce]

Interesting.

The buds I see all look to be needle buds rather than adventitious buds.

More interesting!

Adair, I've read about adventitous buds but never really new what it meant.
Care to drop some "Son of thunder" knowledge on us and elaborate? What is the difference? Pines can have needle only buds that won't branch?

Thanks!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

JBP have two kinds of buds: Adventitious buds and needle buds.

Adventitious buds are those that are at the base of the spring candle. If something happens to the primary spring candle, these get stimulated to grow.

Needle buds lie in between the needles of each needle pair. They are much weaker than adventitious buds, and take a couple years to develop into normal twigs.

Our goal when decandling is to stimulate the stronger adventitious buds. Working to stimulate needle buds is much less reliable.

 

[Q-Bonsai]

Adventitious budding is beginning to happen to a smaller scale than I hoped. But nonetheless, it is happening. Also, not much back budding as I wanted. On the bright side, there are tons buds everywhere now!

 

[JudyB]

Good for you. It will be a nice tree someday, it's got good bones.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In my experience - you don't hear much about fall candle pruning because it is an advanced technique. It can work in the hands of the very experienced who can read the health of their trees accurately. A JBP that is even a little weak can be seriously set back by this technique. I am fairly sure it is not something even the most advanced grower would be successful with year after year. It is useful once or twice, then the tree needs recovery time.

And climate plays into it also. I definitely would not recommend fall candle pruning to anyone in zone 5. The growing seasons are too short.

I had a couple JBP do serious decline after my attempts with fall decandling.

I'm glad it is working outfor you in this case. For those that have used the technique - and have gotten the desired results, consider yourselves advanced growers. Congrats! To the novice grower who has not yet made "friends" with Japanese Black Pine culture - I would recommend avoiding this technique.

The tree really needs to be in perfect health, or this technique will not give the desired results, and could possibly weaken the tree, and slow the following year's progress.

That is my 2 cents.

 

[Neli]

this is one I cut back this year...candles are bigger now.

 

[Q-Bonsai]

Update from a couple of days ago.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

My culture of JBP is evolving, I have since come to realize, if you don't get a good flush of strong adventitious buds after candle pruning, it is likely the tree did not get enough fertilizer the fall and spring prior to candle pruning. JBP are heavy feeders.

 

[0soyoung]

My culture of JBP is evolving, I have since come to realize, if you don't get a good flush of strong adventitious buds after candle pruning, it is likely the tree did not get enough fertilizer the fall and spring prior to candle pruning. JBP are heavy feeders.

This is true for all pines, not just JBP --> good nitrigen nutrition is needed for (strong) budding.

 

[markyscott]

Update from a couple of days ago.

Q - it looks as though the needles extended on all of the buds. Did the tree end up setting any back buds from which needles did not extend this season?

Scott

 

[Q-Bonsai]

Q - it looks as though the needles extended on all of the buds. Did the tree end up setting any back buds from which needles did not extend this season?

Scott

Tons of back budding happened but not far back enough. Most of the branches were far too old to get back budding on but now, I have plenty of bud to choose from to set the framework moving forward. I will need to graft further up the branches in the spring.

This technique was great, the flush of needles came out short, and the new buds plentiful. The strange thing though, is that some of them have hardened off already and every bud extended.

 

[markyscott]

Tons of back budding happened but not far back enough. Most of the branches were far too old to get back budding on but now, I have plenty of bud to choose from to set the framework moving forward. I will need to graft further up the branches in the spring.

This technique was great, the flush of needles came out short, and the new buds plentiful. The strange thing though, is that some of them have hardened off already and every bud extended.

It seems like your tree had a normal decandling response. Mid- August is late in most of the country, but not particularly late in Houston. Normally I decandle between late July to early August, so your timing was not particularly late. If you wish to try this again, consider waiting until mid to late September. You'll still have until at least late November before the first frost.

Fall decandling will generally involve the tree setting buds only. The buds will not extend and send new needles until the following growing season. So care must be taken the following growing season because the tree is supported by 2 year old needles. I do not decandle the next season and care must be taken with bud thinning and needle thinning the next summer and fall.

Scott

 

[Q-Bonsai]

It seems like your tree had a normal decandling response. Mid- August is late in most of the country, but not particularly late in Houston. Normally I decandle between late July to early August, so your timing was not particularly late. If you wish to try this again, consider waiting until mid to late September. You'll still have until at least late November before the first frost.

Fall decandling will generally involve the tree setting buds only. The buds will not extend and send new needles until the following growing season. So care must be taken the following growing season because the tree is supported by 2 year old needles. I do not decandle the next season and care must be taken with bud thinning and needle thinning the next summer and fall.

Scott

I decandled in mid September. October might be a good option for our climate to perform a standard fall decandling. I just found it very fascinating that the buds fully extended and hardened in a month and a half.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Q,
It is always interesting to see how JBP responds to techniques at different times of the year, so thanks for sharing. However, I'm not clear on what you were trying to accomplish by candle cutting this late in the year. Some suppositions:
1. Waiting until later may mean the tree was stronger and could respond with a second flush faster? (This seems to have happened, but will they harden off in time?)
2. Waiting until later may mean the tree responds simply by producing buds for next year, but further back along the bare branches? (Didn't happen here, but I have had that result with a corker.)
3. Purely experimental: let's see if the tree can produce candles with 8 weeks left in the season?

Based on your goal and the results, would you likely do this again, or not?

 

[Q-Bonsai]

Q,
It is always interesting to see how JBP responds to techniques at different times of the year, so thanks for sharing. However, I'm not clear on what you were trying to accomplish by candle cutting this late in the year. Some suppositions:
1. Waiting until later may mean the tree was stronger and could respond with a second flush faster? (This seems to have happened, but will they harden off in time?)
2. Waiting until later may mean the tree responds simply by producing buds for next year, but further back along the bare branches? (Didn't happen here, but I have had that result with a corker.)
3. Purely experimental: let's see if the tree can produce candles with 8 weeks left in the season?

Based on your goal and the results, would you likely do this again, or not?

Combination of all three? The tree has long lanky branches and I wanted to get some back budding. At the same time, mid september would give the candles time to extend and I wanted to see if they would harden in time.

The results are, very uneven growth amongst the branches, lots of budding just not far back enough to where I wanted, fast to extend and harden off.

I will definitely do this again for trees that are very strong and need more budding. Certainly not safe to do on a try that is slightly week as I don't think they could bounce back in time. The only reason I dared to do it on this tree is because it was very strong and I felt confident that it would recover.