Leaf identification. Is a zelkova

[Fred1991]

Hi all.

I was hoping something could help me identify this little tree. It was sold to me as a zelkova. however it doesn't look like one to me? at least not a variety i know. also doesn't seem to grow like a zelkova. Theyre serrated leaves with quite big teeth and feels thicker to the touch than a zelkova serrata.


Sorry for the bad pictures hope someone can help me out

 

[jeremy_norbury]

Sold as Zelkova? Chinese elms are "sold as" Zelkova in the whole of Europe.

Having said that, this looks like a Zelkova Serrata leaf to me.

 

[Fred1991]

thanks for replying jeremy! do you mean japanese elm? It was sold on to me from someone who passed away. I was told it was a zelkova. i don't have any experience with zelkovas. so if you say it is i will believe you. Its just feels very tough to the touch. Also, i don't know its actual age but i didn't think it was old, however the bark has a white hue like a aged zelkova, and i thought young zelkovas had a brownish bark?

View attachment 342418

 

[MrWunderful]

Looks like a zelkova to me. It has the swollen nodes of someone always pruning back to the same point. And fresh wood on zelkovas tends to be more green. Hardened mature leaves can have a very rough sandpaper like texture.

 

[Fred1991]

heres a better picture. however it seem like you guys are pretty sure its a zelkova! thanks alot for helping me with that.

Next question would what you would work on this tree. I'm thinking of taking off the two lower branches to make a more it a more classic broomstyle tree. and working on the taper of the two main branches?

 

[MrWunderful]

Yep cut it all off except for half of the two main branches, it needs to be started from scratch.

 

[Fred1991]

thanks mrwunderful when is best to do this work on zelkovas? Would that be to harsh a prune to do now?

 

[MrWunderful]

I dont live in the UK, but I do follow Harry Harrington (UK based bonsai artist) very closely and he usually recommends structural hard pruning on deciduous in late spring/early summer assuming it is in quality soil.
Based on your pic it appears to be in organic.
I would:
- do nothing now
-repot into better soil when buds move (march/april)
- leave to recover a year if not vigorous
-if vigorous, do the hard prune around june/july (remove lower branches and cut 2 main branches back to a node)

With Zelkova I check to see if the roots are perfect and if they are not then I usually end up ground layering.
Here is a thread where I discuss that : https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/deciduous-nebari-development.46527/

But it is a bit more of an advanced technique. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Fred1991]

thanks alot for replying and being helpful!

it's actually potted in akadama. i just put the pot with soil in a big pot with some organic soil for insulation over winter.

i just got it here in november, and seemed like a healthy tree. the soil looks new and has good drainage so i think it was potted early this year.

I just read through your thread on the ground layer - super cool! would love to do. this is a really small tree hower , and as you say its a bit more of advanced which make me wanna save that for later? maybe ill do the hard prune next spring and have a look at the roots the year after?

 

[MrWunderful]

thanks alot for replying and being helpful!

it's actually potted in akadama. i just put the pot with soil in a big pot with some organic soil for insulation over winter.

i just got it here in november, and seemed like a healthy tree. the soil looks new and has good drainage so i think it was potted early this year.

I just read through your thread on the ground layer - super cool! would love to do. this is a really small tree hower , and as you say its a bit more of advanced which make me wanna save that for later? maybe ill do the hard prune next spring and have a look at the roots the year after?

Thats up to you.
I like to get the nebari set first,
Because every year that goes by is another year in the bank of development.

IMO, nebari is what separates people growing high quality pre-bonsai, to “trees that can be used for bonsai”. Most serious hobbyists/ artists will take a bare trunk with great nebari, over a ramified tree with terrible nebari.

I said it’s an advanced technique because your little tree looks like it has some years under its belt, and would hate for you to ruin or kill it trying this technique (I also dont know your skill level). I have hundreds of seedlings I am growing, so my margin of error is different.

Since you say it’s in decent soil I would not repot it unless root bound, which may happen after one year as zelkova are very vigorous growers.

your best bet may be just to leave it as is, and do your first hard cut back in late spring early summer and start the ramification from there.

then re-assess the roots the following year, and decide if you need to ground layer.

Since you said you want a broom, having a “perfect” base is a hallmark of a quality broom so let that decide your process.

Also happy to help as that is what places like this are for, and I learned a lot by lurking before I joined

 

[Kanorin]

Around here there is a cultivar called “green vase” zelkova that is commonly used as a street tree. It has larger leaves - about 5-6 inches long, although I bet they would reduce. In any case, you might have a cultivar of Zelkova serrata.

 

[Fred1991]

Thats up to you.
I like to get the nebari set first,
Because every year that goes by is another year in the bank of development.

IMO, nebari is what separates people growing high quality pre-bonsai, to “trees that can be used for bonsai”. Most serious hobbyists/ artists will take a bare trunk with great nebari, over a ramified tree with terrible nebari.

I said it’s an advanced technique because your little tree looks like it has some years under its belt, and would hate for you to ruin or kill it trying this technique (I also dont know your skill level). I have hundreds of seedlings I am growing, so my margin of error is different.

Since you say it’s in decent soil I would not repot it unless root bound, which may happen after one year as zelkova are very vigorous growers.

your best bet may be just to leave it as is, and do your first hard cut back in late spring early summer and start the ramification from there.

then re-assess the roots the following year, and decide if you need to ground layer.

Since you said you want a broom, having a “perfect” base is a hallmark of a quality broom so let that decide your process.

Also happy to help as that is what places like this are for, and I learned a lot by lurking before I joined

Yes i think i'm gonna do the pruning first and then asses the roots when its out of its pot for repotting. that also gives me a year to maybe try out the ground layering technique on some of my maple seedlings this coming season!

i do totally agree regarding getting the nebari set up right from the get go. Although i think i have gained a good amount of knowledge i would definetly still call myself a rookie, so most of those more advanced techniques i have yet to try. i have plans of doing my first airlayer next year and i will add this one to the list!

out of curiosity. what would you use a tree this size?

In terms of style i think its size and it the trunk current movement lends itself nicely to shindashi shaped broom.

Thats a super cool mentality btw in regards to helping out! it seems sometimes if you ask a lot of questions you become a annoyance to some people

 

[BobbyLane]

View attachment 342428


heres a better picture. however it seem like you guys are pretty sure its a zelkova! thanks alot for helping me with that.

Next question would what you would work on this tree. I'm thinking of taking off the two lower branches to make a more it a more classic broomstyle tree. and working on the taper of the two main branches?

you dont need to wait until spring to prune off the low branches.

btw Harry is always working on his trees

just saw that youre in London too. i work my trees all through the year without much fuss. winters are fairly mild here
you can take off the low branches flush to the trunk, seal with paste, it will be ok.

 

[Fred1991]

Thanks for your reply bobby! Would you leave the rest of the pruning till late spring then?
What cut paste would you use for this?

 

[MrWunderful]

Yes i think i'm gonna do the pruning first and then asses the roots when its out of its pot for repotting. that also gives me a year to maybe try out the ground layering technique on some of my maple seedlings this coming season!

i do totally agree regarding getting the nebari set up right from the get go. Although i think i have gained a good amount of knowledge i would definetly still call myself a rookie, so most of those more advanced techniques i have yet to try. i have plans of doing my first airlayer next year and i will add this one to the list!

out of curiosity. what would you use a tree this size?

In terms of style i think its size and it the trunk current movement lends itself nicely to shindashi shaped broom.

Thats a super cool mentality btw in regards to helping out! it seems sometimes if you ask a lot of questions you become a annoyance to some people

yeah I would follow the same path.

Glad @BobbyLane chimed in, as he was who I was going to ask to advise you on climate because I have seen his Zelkova work. Since your winters are mild, you might be able to do most of your cutback now if you get an itchy pruning finger.

I never recommend larger fall cuts up front because dieback can occur in harsher climates, and I like to play it safe.

 

[leatherback]

super cool! would love to do

do note:

check to see if the roots are perfect

So do not decide you want to layer because it is cool.
I find that if you have a decent base, proper rootwork is enough, and there is no need to return to your roots. An aged nebari has character and tapered roots and roots of different sizes. Layering just resets the clock and can help fix really bad nebaris.

 

[BobbyLane]

yeah I would follow the same path.

Glad @BobbyLane chimed in, as he was who I was going to ask to advise you on climate because I have seen his Zelkova work. Since your winters are mild, you might be able to do most of your cutback now if you get an itchy pruning finger.

I never recommend larger fall cuts up front because dieback can occur in harsher climates, and I like to play it safe.

when you talk about 'dieback' are you scared that whole side of trunk could potentially cave in from a big branch removal or just a minimal ring of bark turning brown where the branch was removed? because frankly the latter could possibly happen sure but that will just flake off and the live cambium underneath will just adjust and grow over. i doubt this will be a major issue even in much colder climates, if worried dab on some paste.

ive been chopping back large trunk sections over the last few weeks, where there are live branches in around the chop sites the trees tend to adjust rather quickly.

 

[BobbyLane]

View attachment 342428


heres a better picture. however it seem like you guys are pretty sure its a zelkova! thanks alot for helping me with that.

Next question would what you would work on this tree. I'm thinking of taking off the two lower branches to make a more it a more classic broomstyle tree. and working on the taper of the two main branches?

is that what the tree looks like now?

 

[MrWunderful]

when you talk about 'dieback' are you scared that whole side of trunk could potentially cave in from a big branch removal or just a minimal ring of bark cambium turning brown where the branch was removed? because frankly the latter could possibly happen sure but that will just flake off and the live cambium underneath will just adjust and grow over. i doubt this will be a major issue even in much colder climates, if worried dab on some paste.

ive been chopping back large trunk sections over the last few weeks, where there are live branches in around the chop sites the trees tend to adjust rather quickly.

I dont worry about any of that in my climate. But I dont know how cold and wet it gets where OP is, so My recommendations are always going to be on the safe side. And I know for a fact that on zelkova, in much colder areas, pruning a larger branch at the wrong time can cause the branch to die back, possibly taking out a portion that was wanted.

 

[BobbyLane]

yeh but in this case i think he is talking about pruning off unwanted branches. many enthusiasts the world over tidy up their trees at this time of year.