Leaf problems on Hawthorn, need help!

BobbyLane

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Watering from above only. I haven't misted it or submerged it
i reckon its something to do with the fresh spring leaves being too wet and maybe not drying out quick enough, getting burnt in the sun while still wet. only say that because i saw something similar happen to fresh beech leaves
17362377_1306699622728409_8260880022418193129_n.jpg

17554300_1306699619395076_689624642697621730_n.jpg


i could be wrong though. but what you see here is a result of me misting and watering from above. not good for fresh spring leaves, especially in full sun. its better when the leaves have hardened off, i realize now that misting isnt needed nor is watering/drenching the tree from above and soaking all the foliage, not at every watering.
 

JudyB

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i reckon its something to do with the fresh spring leaves being too wet and maybe not drying out quick enough, getting burnt in the sun while still wet. only say that because i saw something similar happen to fresh beech leaves
17362377_1306699622728409_8260880022418193129_n.jpg

17554300_1306699619395076_689624642697621730_n.jpg


i could be wrong though. but what you see here is a result of me misting and watering from above. not good for fresh spring leaves, especially in full sun. its better when the leaves have hardened off, i realize now that misting isnt needed nor is watering/drenching the tree from above and soaking all the foliage, not at every watering.
Beech leaves are the most fragile leaves I know. A bit of wind on new beech leaves and they're done. Looks like these may have had insect damage in the bud before the leaves unfurled. I've seen this before on mine once, on my second flush.
 

discusmike

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In my area during early spring my trees will consume much less water then summer n early fall,if your watering the same as those hotter months that's were your problem is coming from,your tree gets weak then aphids n other critters attack the weakened tree,Watch your watering regime
 

discusmike

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Hawthorn are very hardy I have mine no special protection during my recent freeze n had no issues
 

MichaelS

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Ok so you have scale.
haw2.JPG

That is what's causing all the sooty mould (black powdery crap on the branches) You need to treat that with an oil. (branches not leaves!) At this stage, painting is probably best.
...............................................................................................................................................................
You have mites or some other sucking pest on the leaves. Perhaps thrips. This causes the fine spotting and pitting. You need to find out exactly what with a glass so you can treat it properly.

haw1.JPG
................................................................................................................................................................


The distorted growth with the black tips. This can be caused be a fungal infection such as leaf curl or some kind of blight but the fact that it is on your Maple as well leaves me suspicious that it might be root trouble. I think your mix for the Haw is way too course. They like finer tighter mix. That's just a side issue though. The big problem is placing a root ball surrounded by a fine mix into a coarse mix. That can rot roots in a week in some cases. I don't know if that is what you've done???
It is far better to completely bare root the tree before changing soil texture.
 

tstrum

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Ok so you have scale.
View attachment 138428

That is what's causing all the sooty mould (black powdery crap on the branches) You need to treat that with an oil. (branches not leaves!) At this stage, painting is probably best.
...............................................................................................................................................................
You have mites or some other sucking pest on the leaves. Perhaps thrips. This causes the fine spotting and pitting. You need to find out exactly what with a glass so you can treat it properly.

View attachment 138429
................................................................................................................................................................


The distorted growth with the black tips. This can be caused be a fungal infection such as leaf curl or some kind of blight but the fact that it is on your Maple as well leaves me suspicious that it might be root trouble. I think your mix for the Haw is way too course. They like finer tighter mix. That's just a side issue though. The big problem is placing a root ball surrounded by a fine mix into a coarse mix. That can rot roots in a week in some cases. I don't know if that is what you've done???
It is far better to completely bare root the tree before changing soil texture.
Thank you Michael. I left a good portion of the rootball in tact, hoping to reduce the shock to the tree. Opposite logic to what I now realize I should have done.

In general, it looks like I have hit everything not to do on one poor tree.
 

tstrum

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I appreciate everyone's responses! I hope I can fix some of the issues and save the tree, but even if I don't I can say I have learned a lot from this bad experience. Which, unfortunate, as it was a pretty nice tree, I will take quite a few lessons.
 

f1pt4

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I appreciate everyone's responses! I hope I can fix some of the issues and save the tree, but even if I don't I can say I have learned a lot from this bad experience. Which, unfortunate, as it was a pretty nice tree, I will take quite a few lessons.

If you learned something, it's not a failure. Your next ones will fair better!
 

tstrum

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Ok so you have scale.
View attachment 138428

That is what's causing all the sooty mould (black powdery crap on the branches) You need to treat that with an oil. (branches not leaves!) At this stage, painting is probably best.
...............................................................................................................................................................
You have mites or some other sucking pest on the leaves. Perhaps thrips. This causes the fine spotting and pitting. You need to find out exactly what with a glass so you can treat it properly.

View attachment 138429
................................................................................................................................................................


The distorted growth with the black tips. This can be caused be a fungal infection such as leaf curl or some kind of blight but the fact that it is on your Maple as well leaves me suspicious that it might be root trouble. I think your mix for the Haw is way too course. They like finer tighter mix. That's just a side issue though. The big problem is placing a root ball surrounded by a fine mix into a coarse mix. That can rot roots in a week in some cases. I don't know if that is what you've done???
It is far better to completely bare root the tree before changing soil texture.
Is there anything I can do at this point to improve the fine/coarse soil problem?
 

MichaelS

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Is there anything I can do at this point to improve the fine/coarse soil problem?
Unfortunately no. Touching the roots now will cause more harm than good. However, it is important to have a dig and see what's going on in there. If you see new white root tips entering the new mix, it should be ok. If all you see is dead black roots, you have big problems and you might have to do an emergency repot buy taking it out, washing the roots clean, cutting off all the green shoots and potting up in fresh mix. Haws are very strong and should be able to handle that if not too far gone.
Let us know what happens and good luck!
 

tstrum

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Unfortunately no. Touching the roots now will cause more harm than good. However, it is important to have a dig and see what's going on in there. If you see new white root tips entering the new mix, it should be ok. If all you see is dead black roots, you have big problems and you might have to do an emergency repot buy taking it out, washing the roots clean, cutting off all the green shoots and potting up in fresh mix. Haws are very strong and should be able to handle that if not too far gone.
Let us know what happens and good luck!
If I do see black roots and have to repot, along with washing everything off is there something I can put there to help them? Like insecticide or rooting hormone, anything like that that could help?
 

Cadillactaste

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Ok so you have scale.
View attachment 138428

That is what's causing all the sooty mould (black powdery crap on the branches) You need to treat that with an oil. (branches not leaves!) At this stage, painting is probably best.
...............................................................................................................................................................
You have mites or some other sucking pest on the leaves. Perhaps thrips. This causes the fine spotting and pitting. You need to find out exactly what with a glass so you can treat it properly.

View attachment 138429
................................................................................................................................................................


The distorted growth with the black tips. This can be caused be a fungal infection such as leaf curl or some kind of blight but the fact that it is on your Maple as well leaves me suspicious that it might be root trouble. I think your mix for the Haw is way too course. They like finer tighter mix. That's just a side issue though. The big problem is placing a root ball surrounded by a fine mix into a coarse mix. That can rot roots in a week in some cases. I don't know if that is what you've done???
It is far better to completely bare root the tree before changing soil texture.
I mentioned awhile back I thought I seen bugs/pests. Makes sense to me.
 

MichaelS

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If I do see black roots and have to repot, along with washing everything off is there something I can put there to help them? Like insecticide or rooting hormone, anything like that that could help?
No just wash, cut back the dead root tips and replant. Don't forget to cut the branches too. If you see white roots leave it! If you do go ahead and cut it back and replant, that would be a good time to spray for the scale as well. Remember, I'm just guessing based on experience here. I can't look at it so you'll need to investigate closely to determine what to do...
 

tstrum

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The move seems a great one...
And at the worst time too...

Are you watering everyday?

What where the roots like? Pics?



I don't think a tree from a good bonsai nursery can make such a move....
Maybe an exceptional one....

If these where greenhoused it could be just that....they miss it..

In the future....

I would highly consider only buying local trees that have been housed the same as you can house them....

Which for me...

Means collecting local!

Sorce

Sorce,

You mentioned that winter was a bad time to ship a tree. I was wondering when the ideal time would be? I am wanting to buy some small 4" or gallon size trees from evergreengardenworks.com this summer but wanted to see if that would be ok?
 

sorce

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Sorce,

You mentioned that winter was a bad time to ship a tree. I was wondering when the ideal time would be? I am wanting to buy some small 4" or gallon size trees from evergreengardenworks.com this summer but wanted to see if that would be ok?

I, personally, am pretty anti shipping trees in general......

I wouldn't be the right guy to ask.

I think it's Cool to send each other cuttings and stuff....

But I wouldn't ship a tree...

Or ever buy one online.

Sorce
 

tstrum

Mame
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I saw a quote from Brian Van Fleet on another thread, I think he was quoting Peter Warren, if I remember correctly. It said something along the lines: Some people practice bonsai for 30 years and some practice it for 1 year 30 times over. This now being my second year and as this tree circles the drain, I thought I'd take some time to do a Lessons Learned of all that went wrong on this tree. My hope is to not be the second guy in Peter's quote.

This was my first winter to spring transition and a full repotting cycle. So here are my lessons learned:

Repotting
1. Bare root all deciduous if they were previously in dirt
2. Use smaller particle size
3. Sift soil more thoroughly, wash dust off better
4. When repotting, take more time to understand root pattern of the tree
5. Wait a bit longer to repot (strange, extremely warm February started growth, but still should have waited a bit more)
6. Deciduous soil would benefit from using akadama (or similar substrate). I used 2 part pumice, 2 part lava and 1 part charcoal only

Early Spring Care
7. Use chopstick method to test when to water, moisture meter didn't work
8. Move trees less
9. Take more care (probably back into greenhouse) for a few weeks after repotting
10. Watch weather more closely

Hygiene/ Sanitation
11. Sanitize tools
12. Sift/wash soil (repeat, but important)
13. Sanitize pots

Overall
SLOW DOWN, follow instructions (mainly frequency of applying fert, insecticide/ fungicide) and don't improvise
 

butlern

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Did these trees make it through?

Do you still have the crepe myrtles that Johnathan gave you? (I gave them to him, he said he gave them to you, so I was just curious if they're still alive).

Hope you growing is going well there in OKC.

I move away from SE OKC/Moore area and up to Iowa in Feb 2016 (which is how Johnathan got my trees!)

Noah
 
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