Learning Bonsai

[Paulkellum]

It gets harder and hared every time I go to Boon's for training. He is a amazing teacher who know what he wants and demands it of you. The hard part is after every trip you just sell all your trees because there under developed and not great. I guess it's good and bad as most of us are on a great set of material after a few trips. Here is some pictures of boons for those of you who like looking.

 

[Vance Wood]

It gets harder and hared every time I go to Boon's for training. He is a amazing teacher who know what he wants and demands it of you. The hard part is after every trip you just sell all your trees because there under developed and not great. I guess it's good and bad as most of us are on a great set of material after a few trips. Here is some pictures of boons for those of you who like looking.

Personally I find it problematic that you feel you have to get rid of the trees you worked on previously because they are not great? In my opinion you have to figure out what you actually want to accomplish. If you have a problem with the trees you currently have why don't you work on them to make them better.

Having had this conversation in one form or another a time or two in the past it comes to mind that every year you (generically) are being convinced that your efforts from previous years are not adequate therefore you must start over. If you can afford this, that's fine, but if you can't, your stuck. Is there something wrong with looking at your own trees with new eyes and making them better? Maybe it's just me, but having come to the conclusion I need to start over (sort of) does not mean I have to discard all of my previous work. Everything I currently have is, at the least, very good pre-bonsai, where am I going to get raw material better than I already have?

 

[Paulkellum]

Few more pictures

 

[Paulkellum]

Personally I find it problematic that you feel you have to get rid of the trees you worked on previously because they are not great? In my opinion you have to figure out what you actually want to accomplish. If you have a problem with the trees you currently have why don't you work on them to make them better.

Having had this conversation in one form or another a time or two in the past it comes to mind that every year you (generically) are being convinced that your efforts from previous years are not adequate therefore you must start over. If you can afford this, that's fine, but if you can't, your stuck. Is there something wrong with looking at your own trees with new eyes and making them better? Maybe it's just me, but having come to the conclusion I need to start over (sort of) does not mean I have to discard all of my previous work. Everything I currently have is, at the least, very good pre-bonsai, where am I going to get raw material better than I already have?

Seems you took what I was saying as a negative allow me to rephrase it. The more you learn to identify what is true potential and what is never going to be great art. I was just saying when u first get trees you think you know it's funny when you really know what you got and what it can or can't be. I didn't get into this to grow junk I wanted to learn how to be a bonsai artist that changes what kind of trees you buy. I started thing 200 was a lot for a tree and spend 5000 last week so thing change based on expanding your education.

 

[coh]

Seems you took what I was saying as a negative allow me to rephrase it. The more you learn to identify what is true potential and what is never going to be great art. I was just saying when u first get trees you think you know it's funny when you really know what you got and what it can or can't be. I didn't get into this to grow junk I wanted to learn how to be a bonsai artist that changes what kind of trees you buy. I started thing 200 was a lot for a tree and spend 5000 last week so thing change based on expanding your education.

It's kind of hard to not take statements like the above (underlined) in a negative way, whether you intend it that way or not. You're basically putting down the type of material that a LOT of members here are working with.

 

[Paulkellum]

It's kind of hard to not take statements like the above (underlined) in a negative way, whether you intend it that way or not. You're basically putting down the type of material that a LOT of members here are working with.

Why take anything negative I was just sharing some Picts of amazing bonsai in US. If you feel good about your tree awesome art is in eye of beholder. We all have different taste in art such as bonsai. No one put down anyone was commenting on me not others. Enjoy the pictures.

 

[Vance Wood]

Seems you took what I was saying as a negative allow me to rephrase it. The more you learn to identify what is true potential and what is never going to be great art. I was just saying when u first get trees you think you know it's funny when you really know what you got and what it can or can't be. I didn't get into this to grow junk I wanted to learn how to be a bonsai artist that changes what kind of trees you buy. I started thing 200 was a lot for a tree and spend 5000 last week so thing change based on expanding your education.

Then take what you now believe to be junk and turn them into art, after all a good artist can make art out of a turd, forgive me for being coarse. For years I have watched people believe the mantra that now they have seen the light, all they need to do is buy better material. With what they believe they now know they can make wonderful works of art. I personally know a gentleman that went out and spent thousands of dollars to buy the most wonderful raw material you could imagine and lost it all. The real flaw is that some where someone, or some how you have convinced your self that nothing can be made of the trees you now have and you must, if you are going to grow as a bonsai artist, buy better material to work on. It has to be bigger, better, greener, or some rare species even God does not know about.

Truth be known all of the same problems that exist with what you perceive to be junk still exist with the very rare expensive stock you purchased from someone willing to sell it to you. The excuse being that now you have material worth the time and effort you might spend to make it into bonsai.

 

[Poink88]

While I understand what you are saying, I am with Vance on this. If your goal is to have world class materials then yes, you need to buy the best stock. But if your goal is to be a good artist, you need to constantly work on "difficult" materials. JMHO

You are the only one who knows what you want and what is right for you.

 

[Paulkellum]

Then take what you now believe to be junk and turn them into art, after all a good artist can make art out of a turd, forgive me for being coarse. For years I have watched people believe the mantra that now they have seen the light, all they need to do is buy better material. With what they believe they now know they can make wonderful works of art. I personally know a gentleman that went out and spent thousands of dollars to buy the most wonderful raw material you could imagine and lost it all. The real flaw is that some where someone, or some how you have convinced your self that nothing can be made of the trees you now have and you must, if you are going to grow as a bonsai artist, buy better material to work on. It has to be bigger, better, greener, or some rare species even God does not know about.

Truth be known all of the same problems that exist with what you perceive to be junk still exist with the very rare expensive stock you purchased from someone willing to sell it to you. The excuse being that now you have material worth the time and effort you might spend to make it into bonsai.

Well first health of the tree is most important and art is far after. Second I'm not willing to do bonsai 30 years before I have great ones. Many have and I respect that in retirement they have developed trees but I'm not in this to develop raw material for 15 years. Your commenting like you know what trees I had. Little arrogant of you really. As far as you know could been 4yr old twigs or 15yr old pre bonsai. Sounds like this topic angers you after your admitted repeating it year after year. Not sure I expected more from people on here but just put up some Picts you started in on me. I do what I do and when I'm your age hopefully I'll have some amazing trees. But nothing your saying will get me or anyone better at bonsai. Enjoy the pictures .

 

[Paulkellum]

While I understand what you are saying, I am with Vance on this. If your goal is to have world class materials then yes, you need to buy the best stock. But if your goal is to be a good artist, you need to constantly work on "difficult" materials. JMHO

You are the only one who knows what you want and what is right for you.

I'm 100% with you on that and agree. I guess it's because you get to point and didn't have ton emotion in it. I do think every artist wants both few world class and some that are diamond in ruff. I didn't have diamonds in ruff I had coal.

 

[Vance Wood]

Well first health of the tree is most important and art is far after. Second I'm not willing to do bonsai 30 years before I have great ones. Many have and I respect that in retirement they have developed trees but I'm not in this to develop raw material for 15 years. Your commenting like you know what trees I had. Little arrogant of you really. As far as you know could been 4yr old twigs or 15yr old pre bonsai. Sounds like this topic angers you after your admitted repeating it year after year. Not sure I expected more from people on here but just put up some Picts you started in on me. I do what I do and when I'm your age hopefully I'll have some amazing trees. But nothing your saying will get me or anyone better at bonsai. Enjoy the pictures .

I was only trying to offer you some advise. I am not angry or anything akin to it.

 

[Paulkellum]

I was only trying to offer you some advise. I am not angry or anything akin to it.

You are passionate about the topic I'm sorry if I took that as angry. I understand how if it where a bad feeling I might wanta quiet. For me it exciting as I can afford to excel faster. I don't want anyone think you have spend 5000 to have a tree. I want more younger people in this. And I think to excel bonsai there needs to be a infusion of young people. So in no way do I want to discourage them from starting small or even starting from seeds. I'm putting 35 black pine seedlings in ground this year. So I'm not out throwing it all away buying all big yamadori or imported trees. I wrote what I wrote because I'm exited to be knocking down walls absorbing large amounts of information and love it.

 

[Vance Wood]

So I'm not out throwing it all away buying all big yamadori or imported trees. I wrote what I wrote because I'm exited to be knocking down walls absorbing large amounts of information and love it.

I don't know whether I can make myself understood to you without you thinking I am angry or singling you out for a particular reason but I will try. Let me ask one little question: What walls are you knocking down?

 

[jk_lewis]

All the art schools in the world be danged, you cannot teach someone to be an artist. You teach the technique. It becomes "art" if -- IF -- you have it in you to be an artist.

Neither Boon, nor Rembrandt will make you an artist if you are not one.

For those of us who are not, we just do our best.

 

[Poink88]

All the art schools in the world be danged, you cannot teach someone to be an artist. You teach the technique. It becomes "art" if -- IF -- you have it in you to be an artist.

Neither Boon, nor Rembrandt will make you an artist if you are not one.

For those of us who are not, we just do our best.

...thus we move to the; hobbyist vs professional and craftsman vs artist discussion.

 

[Vance Wood]

All the art schools in the world be danged, you cannot teach someone to be an artist. You teach the technique. It becomes "art" if -- IF -- you have it in you to be an artist.

Neither Boon, nor Rembrandt will make you an artist if you are not one.

For those of us who are not, we just do our best.

That of course brings us into the argument of whether or not bonsai is an art or a craft. God help us all; it is both, depending on who is doing it and why.

You are absolutely right about the art thing. If art is not in you you will not be able to get it out. You may learn the forms you may duplicate the trees you see, and quite skillfully, but being one of those individuals like Graham Potter that can look at a hedge and make it into a magnificent bonsai that makes the mouth water will probably not happen.

I guess my chief argument concerning this thread is the tendency of some individuals after being exposed to some great trees and a couple of great artists become like the character in the Progressive Insurance commercial who thinks he can juggle running chain saws. If you cannot execute the techniques you have seen demonstrated on small things how do you think you are going to be able to do them on the large and expensive? And----just because you seem to feel the confidence to do anything does not mean it is going to happen without you paying dues. I did not invent the rules that seem to run the world so try not to hold me accountable for them if I remind you they exist.

 

[Poink88]

Like jkl said, most of us (sadly) are not artists and no amount of kicking, screaming, denying, arguing, education, or training can change that.

A true craftsman increases his success by having the best education & training and by using the best tools & materials he can. A great approach...just not for everyone. Most want it but does not have proper resources (time & money, etc.) so they stay as plain hobbyist (I am in this group). Nothing wrong with that either.

A true artist see "beauty" in everything and can bring it out. Only question is if he is willing to spend as much time and effort on it.

That is how I see it (and yes, I could very well be mistaken so -- JMHO).

 

[Vance Wood]

Like jkl said, most of us (sadly) are not artists and no amount of kicking, screaming, denying, arguing, education, or training can change that.

A true craftsman increases his success by having the best education & training and by using the best tools & materials he can. A great approach...just not for everyone. Most want it but does not have proper resources (time & money, etc.) so they stay as plain hobbyist (I am in this group). Nothing wrong with that either.

A true artist see "beauty" in everything and can bring it out. Only question is if he is willing to spend as much time and effort on it.

That is how I see it (and yes, I could very well be mistaken so -- JMHO).

I don't think you are mistaken, I just have problems with some people condescending to demean the efforts of others. I don't know whether you have noticed or not but I have a policy that I empose on myself: I never criticize the trees of others no matter how ugly they are in my opinion, or how pissed off I am at their owners.

 

[Poink88]

I don't know whether you have noticed or not but I have a policy that I empose on myself: I never criticize the trees of others no matter how ugly they are in my opinion, ...

Can be good or bad. An honest and well meaning critique is FOR ME, priceless. It is one of the best way for us to learn. Otherwise, we will be doing the same mistake over and over. Again...JMHO

 

[coh]

Like jkl said, most of us (sadly) are not artists and no amount of kicking, screaming, denying, arguing, education, or training can change that.

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. I know that many artists would like you to believe it is that way, but...

I've spent the past 5-10 years painting, first as a hobby and then more seriously (quit my regular job to pursue painting). During those years I've taken classes and workshops with some of the top painters in the U.S. and met many others. Many of them have said that they don't feel they were "born with" any specific/special artistic talent, but rather they developed an interest in art and then worked very hard at it for many years. One guy I know pretty well who has developed into one of the more highly regarded landscape painters in the U.S. worked for many years as a wildlife illustrator, this allowed him to develop his painting skills to a high level.

I do believe that there are some people (but relatively few) who are born with special abilities that make certain things easier, but I believe they are in the minority.

Chris