Learning in general...not just bonsai.

[Poink88]

We are all here to share and learn about bonsai (despite our differences)...hopefully to better and progress bonsai for us as an individual, as a country, and as a community. To achieve that, I think we need to learn the (traditional) basics...build a solid foundation then push the boundaries.

So many times, we spoon feed people and I believe that is not the best way to do it. Limiting things to what was already done is IMHO just that...limiting. It is better to plant the seed or a spark to ignite better understanding and creative thinking.

Worse, I see people try to stamp out new ideas rather than nurture them. I'd love to see this place getting excited & rejoicing for every accomplishment (big and small) be it from newbies or masters. Where every member is embraced and strength is seen as achievement for bonsai and not as a threat.

My signature line says "Innovate or Stagnate"...I really believe that. If we are happy where we are and what we have now then innovation is not needed. Otherwise, we need to keep finding new things for progress if not, just for variety and keeping this hobby more exciting. Your choice.

Have a good day!


That was very heavy & dramatic...lighten up...VOTE Dario for PRESIDENT!!! LOL

 

[thams]

I agree for the most part. The problem is many people (myself included) have not mastered the basics yet to warrent trying unconventional techniques and ideas. IMO it takes years to master horticultural and bonsai practices. While an off the wall technique might work once, I'd rather practice the conventional route until I'm positive of the outcome. Only then can a new technique be informed by proven practice.

I agree that praise should be given in any victory - large or small. I also think that praise should be given when someone practices patience by doing nothing at all if it improves the health and development of the tree years down the road.

 

[Dirty Nails]

I prefer to learn from those who are accomplished in the art. There have been many decades of mistakes made before my time so that I don't have to spend the short amount of time I have on earth making the same mistakes. The art of bonsai is challenging enough and I don't need my ego stoked by "being an innovator". Of course if something new and innovative is SHOWN TO GET RESULTS then it is worthy of consideration.

Just because I don't innovate does not mean I am stagnate. Which is why I have never agreed with your signature line. You seem to have a burning desire to be original and ground breaking...good for you. The rate of failure in being a true innovator inspires some (you) and discourages others (me).

 

[Paradox]

Everyone learns differently so its hard to say how each of us should approach learning bonsai.

Some of us are more cautious and tend to follow guidlines more closely while others throw caution to the winds and push things faster or to a greater extent.

One thing remains true: dead trees don't make good bonsai. We need to learn how to keep things alive first and formost. If I purchase a tree and do all kinds of things to it and it dies a year later, did it die because of what I did to it or did it die because its just not a species that grows well in my yard or because I just didn't give it the proper care? The answer is an important one. So I tend to wait before I start chopping, pruning etc just to see if I can get the thing to live. Then I proceed slowly with the work to see what it can tolerate and to try and not kill it.

As for the rest of your comment. I think everyone is welcome here. There are a lot of strong opinions though but that shouldn't be a bad thing as long as it doesn't get personal. I enjoy seeing new ideas as it does give food for thought later on. However telling someone that has just gotten their first tree to just go full speed ahead without learning the basics of keeping a tree alive justs sets them up for a greater chance of failure and that's what we don't want. So promoting the tried and true to new people isn't a bad thing if it increases their chances at sucess and fosters their continuation. Once they become more knowledgeable and comfortable, then is the time to start pushing the envelope and take risks.

 

[coh]

Dario, I'm curious to know what you've done that you consider so innovative?

Chris

 

[dick benbow]

I've been at this Japanese interest of mine for over 40 years.

during the Vietnam era, I was stationed in japan as part of the Armed forces Radio and TV service.

When I came home, I moved from Ohio to Washington state and built my japanese garden.
during it's design I wanted a koi pond but no clubs or information to assist. So In my lifetime i have helped to start 3 clubs in the Northwest. Including the first club here in washington to have a koi show.

Along the way I kept being challenged to learn more and more with other hobbies such as Chrysanthemums, Bonsai and for the last three years Suiseki.

last year I went heads over heels with tokonoma display.

What I've learned over the decades is if you want to learn, be motivated. mentors are easier to find these days then before. The more japanese hobbies you get into the more each helps to understand the other.

My second generation Japanese friends insist that inside this caucasion body lives the soul of a japanese. I'm very humbled by that observation.

As the "Koi Coach", I've traveled many parts of this country to teach seminars and share what I've learned. I think in order to be a good teacher, it helps to be a good student.

An observation I realized recently is that over the decades, word gets out of my various interests and I receive lots of phone calls on a daily basis for help with various things. ( as my wife will attest).Because of that I have this expectation that when I want to learn something I get on the phone with the full expectation that "what comes around, goes around". In other words you receive as well as you give.

 

[Poink88]

Dario, I'm curious to know what you've done that you consider so innovative?

Chris

Nothing. Did I say that I did? BUT if we keep on stopping new thinking or not encourage it...we won't get any.

 

[fourteener]

Nothing. Did I say that I did? BUT if we keep on stopping new thinking or not encourage it...we won't get any.

If your not innovating, but proclaim it as an absolute value you hold, isn't that a problem? So the question still stands...How are you innovating?

Questioning the value of old traditions is not innovation, actually doing something new and producing better results is at the heart of innovation that matters.

 

[Poink88]

My daughter plays the piano, dances, and sings very well (I may be a biased dad though LOL)

What she learned to play (piano) in a few months I might learn after couple of years (if I am lucky and work hard enough). How she moves (dance) and sings however...I can never attain no matter how many classes I take. Should I tell her she cannot do all these until she have all the foundation right (after college)? Or it cannot be done because I cannot do it? No. I will continue nurturing it and keep it fun for her.

The airplane was not created by 2 brothers alone. The idea was conceived prior but it took the 2 of them to turn the idea into reality after several failures. Numerous improvements was done and added and now we have super sonic (even hyper) jets. I wonder what would have happened if they gave in and stopped. When did innovation(s) happen will be interpreted differently by others. One might say once and I could say thousands of times.

Not totally the same, but both situations somewhat applies to bonsai.

 

[fourteener]

My daughter plays the piano, dances, and sings very well (I may be a biased dad though LOL)

What she learned to play (piano) in a few months I might learn after couple of years (if I am lucky and work hard enough). How she moves (dance) and sings however...I can never attain no matter how many classes I take. Should I tell her she cannot do all these until she have all the foundation right (after college)? Or it cannot be done because I cannot do it? No. I will continue nurturing it and keep it fun for her.

The airplane was not created by 2 brothers alone. The idea was conceived prior but it took the 2 of them to turn the idea into reality after several failures. Numerous improvements was done and added and now we have super sonic (even hyper) jets. I wonder what would have happened if they gave in and stopped. When did innovation(s) happen will be interpreted differently by others. One might say once and I could say thousands of times.

Not totally the same, but both situations somewhat applies to bonsai.

Here in lies the problem with an age-old hobby. There is a large body of proof about certain things working really, really well. Along comes soil types , fertilization methods, understanding of ph balance...add to that a whole host of highly opinionated themes. Which is the information that would serve us well, which is the information that is better thrown out for the new.

I dare say the evaluative processes of people is not real high. Mostly we choose history over new. Few people are pioneers, the bulk are homesteaders. The pioneers struggle is they are desperate to learn new things that the old-timers could have told them if they asked. Homesteaders are annoying cause they only want to do what's secure, known, proven. Even when something is proven to be better. My Grandad got in trouble by his dad for bringing a tractor home. Ain't no use farming more land than what a horse can do.

I certainly get your point. What we all need to do is know what type of person we are. Pioneers need to ask a few more questions of the old guard. Homesteaders need to venture outside the city limit to see what else is going on in the world.

It's not either or, it's both and. Thus a useful community is born. As much as we put our location in our info, we should put our ID as a pioneer or homesteader!!

 

[Poink88]

Dario, I'm curious to know what you've done that you consider so innovative?

Chris

Nothing. Did I say that I did? BUT if we keep on stopping new thinking or not encourage it...we won't get any.

If your not innovating, but proclaim it as an absolute value you hold, isn't that a problem? So the question still stands...How are you innovating?

Questioning the value of old traditions is not innovation, actually doing something new and producing better results is at the heart of innovation that matters.

At the risk of being bashed, I will let what little accomplishment I had (which some see & others consider as nothing) do the talking whether I am innovating or not--considering my less than 2 years in this hobby.

Again, note that innovation is subjective.

 

[thams]

We are all here to share and learn about bonsai (despite our differences)...hopefully to better and progress bonsai for us as an individual, as a country, and as a community. To achieve that, I think we need to learn the (traditional) basics...build a solid foundation then push the boundaries.

So many times, we spoon feed people and I believe that is not the best way to do it. Limiting things to what was already done is IMHO just that...limiting. It is better to plant the seed or a spark to ignite better understanding and creative thinking.

Worse, I see people try to stamp out new ideas rather than nurture them. I'd love to see this place getting excited & rejoicing for every accomplishment (big and small) be it from newbies or masters. Where every member is embraced and strength is seen as achievement for bonsai and not as a threat.

I think the issue folks are having with this post is that you're implying through generalities that more conservative approaches to bonsai are stagnant - or worse, are threats to the evolution of the art itself. I've rarely seen "homesteaders" on this forum stamp out new ideas without a valid justification for doing so.

Honestly, this post reads more like it's aimed at certain individuals with whom you disagree. It seems to me that you took a potentially motivating post and turned it adversarial for no apparent reason. If you disagree with certain people, then name them and the specific issue. Otherwise, what's the point of this post?

 

[sherwoodschwartz]

i think it smacks of hubris to take a thousand year old art and proclaim oneself prepared to "innovate".

and using a spoon to dig a hole instead of a shovel isn't necesarily innovation. it's just doing something different soas to claim something different is being done.

 

[lordy]

My daughter plays the piano, dances, and sings very well (I may be a biased dad though LOL)

What she learned to play (piano) in a few months I might learn after couple of years (if I am lucky and work hard enough). How she moves (dance) and sings however...I can never attain no matter how many classes I take. Should I tell her she cannot do all these until she have all the foundation right (after college)? Or it cannot be done because I cannot do it? No. I will continue nurturing it and keep it fun for her.

The airplane was not created by 2 brothers alone. The idea was conceived prior but it took the 2 of them to turn the idea into reality after several failures. Numerous improvements was done and added and now we have super sonic (even hyper) jets. I wonder what would have happened if they gave in and stopped. When did innovation(s) happen will be interpreted differently by others. One might say once and I could say thousands of times.

Not totally the same, but both situations somewhat applies to bonsai.

I dont see how what your daughter does (accelerated as it is) has any bearing on anyone telling her she cannot do them. She has already proven that whatever method she learned or does is successful. The airplane was not something that had ever been flown before--there was no standard by which to judge their accomplishments. In bonsai, which is a practice of horticulture that takes years and even decades to attain the pinnacle of results, there are numerous standards against which you can compare your methods and results. They stand the test of time, and there are ways that thousands before us got to where they are. Just because they do it a particular way is not a hard and fast rule, but there is also no need to reinvent the wheel just because you dont believe that round rolls better than square. To be a non-conformist for the sake of not wanting to follow the crowd is admirable sometimes. Had your daughter told her piano teacher that "the way she was taught was unnecessary and she wanted to use her elbows instead because everyone uses their finger and that is not the only way it can be done" may be true, but is it sensible?
Simply saying "...IMHO" or "do whatever works for you" doesnt help people learn. In most cases it just confuses the issue.

 

[Poink88]

I think the issue folks are having with this post is that you're implying through generalities that more conservative approaches to bonsai are stagnant - or worse, are threats to the evolution of the art itself. I've rarely seen "homesteaders" on this forum stamp out new ideas without a valid justification for doing so.

Honestly, this post reads more like it's aimed at certain individuals with whom you disagree. It seems to me that you took a potentially motivating post and turned it adversarial for no apparent reason. If you disagree with certain people, then name them and the specific issue. Otherwise, what's the point of this post?

It is how you see it...no words from me or anyone can change that. But if you really want to understand, you will have to remove some of your filters of me (then read the post again).

 

[thams]

It is how you see it...no words from me or anyone can change that. But if you really want to understand, you will have to remove some of your filters of me (then read the post again).

Filters of past experience cannot be removed -- it's like saying that I approach every conversation or idea without any bias at all. All previous experience shades our approach to everything we do. Therefore in my experience I feel that you approach every post with a contrarian attitude.

Speaking from an inexperienced bonsai-ist perspective, it seems that most conventional advise provided by certain members is always countered in some form by you. As a person that is attempting to learn the basics - it's distracting. My point is, sometimes us newcomers need to be spoon-fed at first to learn the basics. This does not mean that I'm counter to innovation. It means that my priorities are different than yours. If you feel that you've mastered the basics and can begin to challenge conventional wisdom then go for it. I just know that I'm not there yet.

 

[coh]

Nothing. Did I say that I did? BUT if we keep on stopping new thinking or not encourage it...we won't get any.

4200 posts and not one innovation. Perhaps it's time to take that quote out of your sig.

 

[Poink88]

For the record, I NEVER bashed tradition or aimed to reinvent the wheel for that matter. All I am saying is to look for ways to improve things (this is what innovation is). Some of it may be good but not necessarily the best (yet).

Stupid is stupid...that is not what I am aiming for.

4200 posts and not one innovation. Perhaps it's time to take that quote out of your sig.

I believe in personal innovation...not as grand but it matters when you want to improve yourself. Learning new things (could be old to some) and using them is, for me, innovation also. You can disagree...that would be fine.

 

[coh]

Seems like a lot of words being used to say...nothing, in the end.

You can disagree...that's fine, too!

 

[thams]

I believe in personal innovation...not as grand but it matters when you want to improve yourself. Learning new things (could be old to some) and using them is, for me, innovation also. You can disagree...that would be fine.

I completely and totally agree with you. But this is not what you were implying from your previous posts. Here you're saying that learning something new to you (although pre-established by others) is innovation. I just call it learning. If we have to use different terms for learning, then so be it. When you get down to it, learning a pre-existing art is just that - learning.