Leaving a peg when removing a large sacrifice?

RJG2

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Not that I'll need this technique soon or anything, but when I read about something and can't find any more info it bothers me 😃

It's mentioned in passing in the comments of this BT article:

Does anyone have experience with this method? Pictures? How wide is the peg (percentage of total diameter)?
 

sorce

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If the wood is left to keep the center from splitting before the callous tissue reaches there, the necessary parts of the equation to figure out how wide it should be are...

The density of the Branch your cutting.
The Size of the Branch.
And the growth rate of the tree or the closure speed of old wounds.

You can always leave it wider and walk it back in when the callous reaches it.

Sorce
 

RJG2

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The comment (not Jonas's reply) mentioned sap flow, in which case you couldn't just leave heart wood - so the peg would have to be pretty wide as a percentage of the width.

But you're right, it can always be walked back - and it probably isn't about sap flow (how long would that last with no foliage?).
 

leatherback

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Thinking out loud here..

The area where a branch connects to the trunk is a big junction of veins up and down the trunk and veins in and out of the branch. This is one of the reasons why tree surgeons are recommended to not cut of the branch collar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_collar#Pruning): You damage a lot of mutually dependent structures. I can imagine leaving a branch stub in place and allowling the tree to naturally close it off will reduce the damage done to the sapflow in the trunk thus enhancing the callussing over once the collar is removed: A lot of interaction has been sorted out by the tree already.

1614857988672.png
Figure 3: A visual representation of the branch attachment model of Dr. Alex L. Shigo based on overlapping growth, published in 1985
 

Brian Van Fleet

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This JBP had pegs left from pruning cuts. It came from Telperion Farms, so @garywood may have insight. I think the reason is to preserve the wood long enough for the callus tissue to cover it. It appears the peg diameter was around 50% of the cut, and gets reduced in diameter each year, to expose more wood for the callus to cover, until it is removed flush to allow the callus to finally close.
 

Adair M

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Thinking out loud here..

The area where a branch connects to the trunk is a big junction of veins up and down the trunk and veins in and out of the branch. This is one of the reasons why tree surgeons are recommended to not cut of the branch collar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_collar#Pruning): You damage a lot of mutually dependent structures. I can imagine leaving a branch stub in place and allowling the tree to naturally close it off will reduce the damage done to the sapflow in the trunk thus enhancing the callussing over once the collar is removed: A lot of interaction has been sorted out by the tree already.

View attachment 358218
Figure 3: A visual representation of the branch attachment model of Dr. Alex L. Shigo based on overlapping growth, published in 1985
Well... the tree surgeons saying to not remove the collar aren’t doing bonsai. They’re not concerned with the tree looks. Leaving the collar will create a huge knob.

Carving back the stump, and leaving a peg removes the collar. The peg keeps the center from rotting out before the callous can grow to cover it.

Once the callous gets close to the bottom of the peg, the peg can be removed. This will expose fresh hardwood for the callous to cover.

It seems that callous tissue will continue to grow to cover intact hardwood, but it doesn’t seem to grow where the hardwood has rotted away.
 

penumbra

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Well... the tree surgeons saying to not remove the collar aren’t doing bonsai. They’re not concerned with the tree looks. Leaving the collar will create a huge knob.

Carving back the stump, and leaving a peg removes the collar. The peg keeps the center from rotting out before the callous can grow to cover it.

Once the callous gets close to the bottom of the peg, the peg can be removed. This will expose fresh hardwood for the callous to cover.

It seems that callous tissue will continue to grow to cover intact hardwood, but it doesn’t seem to grow where the hardwood has rotted away.
This is true but in no way discredits the work of Dr Shigo. It is something bonsai people who are also arborists have to reconcile.
 

Forsoothe!

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I disagree with the whole premise. I seek to leave zero scar. I always cut back with a concave cutter to the point of origin as deep into the trunk as I can, without (this is the mucho muy importante point), without damaging the collar of trunk bark which is the live bark that will grow over the "valley" that I leave. To the same extent that the often wrinkled collar is damaged or removed, the tree will be slower to grow over the cut, even to the point that if all of that wrinkled bark is removed, it may never cover the wound until tree doubles or triples or more in diameter. That wrinkled bark is ugly(?) because it is live and growing and is essentially dammed-up by the branch which is in the way. That is the sign of healthy, growing bark and is species-specific in appearance. The bigger that lump is, the quicker it can spread out over the wound, if and only if, it remains undamaged when removing the branch. So, do the least damage to remove only the branch poking out and none of the trunk wood.

As to checking of the wood of the branch origin inside the trunk that is too deep to reach without damaging the surrounding trunk wood: all wood shrinks as it dries and only cracks if part of it drys before the whole thing drys out. Checking is overcome by kiln drying for lumber intended for decorative uses wherein the atmosphere is temperature and humidity controlled to slow down the process to rates appropriate to a given species and board size. Lumber intended for structural uses are air dried and often twists and turns and splits and that's the price paid to retain the maximum strength and flexibility of wood. You can mimic that process by sealing the ends of a log and setting it aside long enough for the drying process to occur slowly enough for the whole piece of wood to shrink at the same rate by forcing diffusion of the moisture in a log. That means that the moisture level within the different densities of dense inner core and outer less dense wood remains in balance for the whole length of time it takes for the whole mass of wood to reach a cured level of moisture. It can take a year for a 12" diameter log. Kiln-dried wood is said to be "killed", and air-dried wood is said to be "live". Killed wood is more suitable for interior uses because it moves less with changes in humidity level.

So, seal the cut immediately to insure three things: 1. To keep the moisture level at the same level of the interior of the trunk until it is shrunk to its maximum point; 2. Overlap the edges of the cut with the sealer to protect the exposed cambium layer surrounding the cut 360°; and 3. To prevent the entry of airborne pathogens and bugs that detect the odor of the sap which is often species-specific (Eg: Box Elder Bugs seek wounded Box Elder trees, et al).
 

leatherback

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Well... the tree surgeons saying to not remove the collar aren’t doing bonsai. They’re not concerned with the tree looks. Leaving the collar will create a huge knob.
Maybe lost in my poor english. I was not suggesting to leave the branch collar forever, but more, allowing the tree time to adjust first. 🤷‍♀️
 

Maiden69

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Ryan Neil does the same on big cuts (larger than 1" for sure), he states that it provides a much smaller area for the callous to roll over, and eventually he either leave them be, or remove then and re-injure the edge of the callous to allow the wound to completely heal over. He showed the technique while working on a Telperion Farm scotts pine.
 

Adair M

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I disagree with the whole premise. I seek to leave zero scar. I always cut back with a concave cutter to the point of origin as deep into the trunk as I can, without (this is the mucho muy importante point), without damaging the collar of trunk bark which is the live bark that will grow over the "valley" that I leave. To the same extent that the often wrinkled collar is damaged or removed, the tree will be slower to grow over the cut, even to the point that if all of that wrinkled bark is removed, it may never cover the wound until tree doubles or triples or more in diameter. That wrinkled bark is ugly(?) because it is live and growing and is essentially dammed-up by the branch which is in the way. That is the sign of healthy, growing bark and is species-specific in appearance. The bigger that lump is, the quicker it can spread out over the wound, if and only if, it remains undamaged when removing the branch. So, do the least damage to remove only the branch poking out and none of the trunk wood.

As to checking of the wood of the branch origin inside the trunk that is too deep to reach without damaging the surrounding trunk wood: all wood shrinks as it dries and only cracks if part of it drys before the whole thing drys out. Checking is overcome by kiln drying for lumber intended for decorative uses wherein the atmosphere is temperature and humidity controlled to slow down the process to rates appropriate to a given species and board size. Lumber intended for structural uses are air dried and often twists and turns and splits and that's the price paid to retain the maximum strength and flexibility of wood. You can mimic that process by sealing the ends of a log and setting it aside long enough for the drying process to occur slowly enough for the whole piece of wood to shrink at the same rate by forcing diffusion of the moisture in a log. That means that the moisture level within the different densities of dense inner core and outer less dense wood remains in balance for the whole length of time it takes for the whole mass of wood to reach a cured level of moisture. It can take a year for a 12" diameter log. Kiln-dried wood is said to be "killed", and air-dried wood is said to be "live". Killed wood is more suitable for interior uses because it moves less with changes in humidity level.

So, seal the cut immediately to insure three things: 1. To keep the moisture level at the same level of the interior of the trunk until it is shrunk to its maximum point; 2. Overlap the edges of the cut with the sealer to protect the exposed cambium layer surrounding the cut 360°; and 3. To prevent the entry of airborne pathogens and bugs that detect the odor of the sap which is often species-specific (Eg: Box Elder Bugs seek wounded Box Elder trees, et al).
Fascinating! Next time I make a bonsai out of a 2x4, I’ll be sure to reference this post.
 

RJG2

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Thanks everyone for the discussion.

I'll be digging my first pitch pines this spring and someday the current trunks will need to go, so I'll probably use this method.
 

Maiden69

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Maybe lost in my poor english. I was not suggesting to leave the branch collar forever, but more, allowing the tree time to adjust first. 🤷‍♀️
This is the same thing Ryan explained. The collar allows the tree to compartmentalize and prevents dieback. Once the tree has done this, he goes back into the area and using a round concave or knob cutter, he smooths out the cut allowing the callous to form a smooth transition.

I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat... and every master teach the method that he used and gave them success. The one thing that I like about Ryan, is that he applies his horticultural knowledge to the art. And after looking at his collection, I don't think I can argue with what he's doing.
 

Maiden69

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suppose biologists think alike.
Well, I think that tends to happen when people work on quantifiable sciences. Where applying a concept can be measured by the response of the organism. Remember that in the end, horticulture is just a part of plan biology.
 

Maiden69

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Botany.
I don't know why I find it necessary to make the distinction. Old school I guess.
I'm old school as well, botany = plant biology = plant science = phytology. One of my aunts called herself a phytologist because the term botanist was mostly used for people that worked in spiritism, santeria, witchcrafts, etc... I guess that is why I use plant science.

 

Forsoothe!

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Was your Aunt from Haiti or one of the Caribbean Islands?
 
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