less is more

[catfish chapstick]

Idk what I hope to gain by asking, but here goes:

In regards to bonsai, what are your thoughts on the ethic of "less is more"

can/does it apply?

often? rarely?

just curious

 

[Poink88]

Really depends on the tree and style you are going for. It does apply but not always IMHO.

 

[fourteener]

Cluttered World, Simple Greatness

Less is more is something I go by a lot. Going to some art galleries this winter I realize that I have too many trees packed into my back yard. Every work of art deserves it's space. I plan on reconfiguring my more finished area with 35-40 trees instead of 50.

I think healthy trees are always moving towards being too full. Cutting back and creating clarity with less...is more.

A great painting needs a place for your eyes to rest. The whole picture can't be busy or it has capacity to steal people's attention from what you really want them to see.

I decorate my home the same way. I use few but high quality products. It's not everyone's "way," but it is mine. It's one of those things where who we are comes out in our artwork. Some appreciate it, some don't.

 

[rockm]

Well, yeah, it's the very physical foundation bonsai is built on. I mean compared to a "real tree" you're working with less tree, less visual space, less soil, less, less less.

The ultimate visual illusion you're trying to create has vastly less detail and feature than what you're trying to picture. For instance, a bonsai has at most a few hundred, or thousand, leaves. A full-sized tree can have tens of millions...

Artistically, the less-is-more approach is more subtle. In Asian art, blank space is as valuable, or more valuable than occupied space. The tension is more natural for the viewer, I think, because the eye can be overwhelmed by too much detail (branches, leaves)...

This is a complex topic that cuts many ways in bonsai. I posted a link below a while back on esthetics in Asian art that addressed some of this in detail. Mono-no-aware, wabi-sabi and a few other Japanese ideals are tied up in this. Understanding those concepts can explain a lot of the artistic ideas in bonsai
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ja...-aesthetics/#2

 

[catfish chapstick]

Well, yeah, it's the very physical foundation bonsai is built on. I mean compared to a "real tree" you're working with less tree, less visual space, less soil, less, less less.

The ultimate visual illusion you're trying to create has vastly less detail and feature than what you're trying to picture. For instance, a bonsai has at most a few hundred, or thousand, leaves. A full-sized tree can have tens of millions...

Artistically, the less-is-more approach is more subtle. In Asian art, blank space is as valuable, or more valuable than occupied space. The tension is more natural for the viewer, I think, because the eye can be overwhelmed by too much detail (branches, leaves)...

This is a complex topic that cuts many ways in bonsai. I posted a link below a while back on esthetics in Asian art that addressed some of this in detail. Mono-no-aware, sabi-sabi and a few other Japanese ideals are tied up in this. Understanding those concepts can explain a lot of the artistic ideas in bonsai
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ja...-aesthetics/#2

I remember that link and read the entire thing, although the link seems to not work now

 

[rockm]

Here's the link again, hopefully this one will work

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-aesthetics/

 

[Smoke]

Always applies.

 

[Poink88]

Always applies.

NOOO! Not always!

Someone I know believes that and on a tree w/ 25 branches, he will...
...cut 5 and get 20 since it is more...
...cut 5 and get 15 since it is more...
...cut 5 and get 10 since it is more...
...cut 5 and get 5 since it is more...
...cut 3 and get 2 since it is more... get it?

There is a right amount...less is not always better.

 

[catfish chapstick]

NOOO! Not always!

Someone I know believes that and on a tree w/ 25 branches, he will...
...cut 5 and get 20 since it is more...
...cut 5 and get 15 since it is more...
...cut 5 and get 10 since it is more...
...cut 5 and get 5 since it is more...
...cut 3 and get 2 since it is more... get it?

There is a right amount...less is not always better.

i really don't think its a numbers thing. of course zero is less than one, etc.

 

[davetree]

Well if healthy trees are moving towards being too full, sparse ones could be said to be moving towards death. It's a fine line to walk.

 

[Poink88]

i really don't think its a numbers thing. of course zero is less than one, etc.

Sorry. I think you missed the point.

Back to the concept, everything has value...even space. You have to attain a good balance to get maximum impact for your design. Some believe in "less is more" and it is true...up to a point. After that, less is just simply that...less.

 

[catfish chapstick]

the point of 'less is more' is simplicity and clarity. this is different for different people, that's why I asked in the first place. There is no set standard, so long as the tree remains alive and growing.

I'm only trying to see what perspectives are out there.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I did a workshop with Ben Oki in '05. He kept talking about making things simpler. Every time he cut a branch, he'd say "there, much simpler now." I think there's a limit, but it's hard not to appreciate those mame crab apples with 1 branch sporting 1-2 apples?

 

[Dav4]

In the fifteen years I've been into bonsai, I've worked with a fair amount of trees. Almost all of them have plateaued along the way- reaching a place development wise where they kind of get stuck. In pretty much every case, excluding a few very old yamadori, I've broken through the stagnation in development by making the design simplier, perhaps by reducing the number of branches or the volume of foliage. Just my experience, but less usually is more...

 

[rockm]

"I've broken through the stagnation in development by making the design simplier, perhaps by reducing the number of branches or the volume of foliage"

I have found this also. Trees get overdeveloped, overgrown and a good re-design involves thinking first about WHAT DOESN'T belong, then moving to what needs to happen.

 

[Paulpash]

Literati is a clear example where less is more ... transfer this to a thick buttressed black pine with a few branches at the apex and it looks ludicrous. Foliage density must match trunk girth (and movement) to be harmonious. I suppose it is also a matter of taste as most things are .... some love the dragon rising deadwood twirls and spirals that Kimura creates ... others think it is way over the top. Simplification is often a tool that enables the eye to flow across a design and creates unity from nebari, to trunk movement, branch placement and out into ramification and twig structure. After this initial scan we then assess the whole. Complex or hard to decipher visual tracking of these features through a cluttered design will result in an image that the eye does not want to dwell on.