Warpig
Chumono
And before that, did the masters in Japan say the same thing. So if it 'stayed hidden' and you never learned your love for it. That would of been the right call?
Lets talk philosophy
- Thread starter Warpig
- Start date
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
I am sure that someone will feel slighted or offended here and believe me, that is not my intent. I was going to stay out of this, but I just feel like this whole thread is pretty ridiculous. There will never be the number of bonsai devotes here that has been fantasized. For one thing, anyone who has been into bonsai for a long time knows that many people currently practicing bonsai will move on to something else in due time. There is very likely to be a big interest in seeing beautiful bonsai for darn near forever. But the likelihood that it will become a phenomena in the west is ridiculous. This is particularly true in our brave new world where people want instant gratification for minimal effort. Bonsai is kind of in its heyday currently but this will pass. It will pass because most people will not be truly vested. It will pass because people are likely to be sidetracked by the next thing to come along. It will pass because it is too hard.
As to the fantasy that bonsai will ever draw a large proportion of people who garden, well that is not reality. I have practiced horticulture since I moved my first wild azalea from the woods into my parents yard in Fairfax when I was 8 years old, 62 years ago. I have known hundreds of gardeners, horticulturists, arborists, plant propagators, collectors, botanists, landscape architects and designers and so forth. Proportionally I have only known a handful of bonsai practitioners. Many plant people are just not interested in bonsai. By a very large margin, the people I have known that showed interest in bonsai have moved on. Again by a large margin, the plant people I have known consider bonsai as a novelty and express no desire to ever practice the art. Finally, the people I have known who gave it a go have long since dropped out. I still run into those folks fairly regularly. I know a ton of great plant people who at most amused by our"tortured little trees in pots". My wife, certified as a horticulturist and an aborist, and married for 30 years to a bonsai lover, thinks bonsai are interesting to view at best.
Granted, the internet has made a difference, for good and for bad. It is much easier to find information on keeping our tortured little trees alive, and it has also made very bad information equally available.
This thread has had some interesting ideas bantered about, but it is a bit like saying 'what would you do if you won the lottery'. It is fantasy.
I'm done.
As to the fantasy that bonsai will ever draw a large proportion of people who garden, well that is not reality. I have practiced horticulture since I moved my first wild azalea from the woods into my parents yard in Fairfax when I was 8 years old, 62 years ago. I have known hundreds of gardeners, horticulturists, arborists, plant propagators, collectors, botanists, landscape architects and designers and so forth. Proportionally I have only known a handful of bonsai practitioners. Many plant people are just not interested in bonsai. By a very large margin, the people I have known that showed interest in bonsai have moved on. Again by a large margin, the plant people I have known consider bonsai as a novelty and express no desire to ever practice the art. Finally, the people I have known who gave it a go have long since dropped out. I still run into those folks fairly regularly. I know a ton of great plant people who at most amused by our"tortured little trees in pots". My wife, certified as a horticulturist and an aborist, and married for 30 years to a bonsai lover, thinks bonsai are interesting to view at best.
Granted, the internet has made a difference, for good and for bad. It is much easier to find information on keeping our tortured little trees alive, and it has also made very bad information equally available.
This thread has had some interesting ideas bantered about, but it is a bit like saying 'what would you do if you won the lottery'. It is fantasy.
I'm done.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Pff...
That is why the thread is referred to as philosohphy; Exploring concepts of life and knowledge; Not per se reality bound.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Warpig
Chumono
I can completely understand if this type of topic isnt for everyone. But, thats a long response to just to say 'nope wont happen'. Yes, i dont think anyone here believes bonsai is going to be the next craze.
I have not been in this community for even a year, so consider me uninformed. That being said, I believe having the art be more mainstream is a good thing. Not living in CA, someone like me can only long for a nursery in town or pumice anywhere within 500 miles. I think accessibility is one of the major goals, after all in Asia bonsai has gone from an elitist pursuit to something anyone can learn. Tennis was originally created for aristocrats; would anyone say having tennis go mainstream was bad for tennis?
And how many times have we heard the concept bonsai for peace? The whole intention was to create a global, mainstream art that could connect people.
I think commercialization and corporatization is a different matter. That's where the price gouging and junk pushing comes from. I think that aspect would be a guarantee in America because of how our companies operate unfortunately. You will get cheap shysters trying to make a buck selling substandard junk. As long as it's not the ONLY alternative then that's ok. Think of tools, as the OP mentioned pots. Right now you can spend a fortune buying professional grade tools (snap on, mac, Milwaukee, dewalt, etc) that are top of the line and will last a long time, or you can go to harbor frieght and buy a $3 pair of pliers, or a $30 electric saw. The point being there are options available depending on what tier you wish to be at. The first thing I bought was a set of 6 plastic pots from Bonsai Outlet, but I've just bought my first @sorce pot because I like them more than plain plastic. But the plastic gave me something to start with.
Also I think having the craft be more mainstream would be good for the trees. How many trees have died since they began mass importation in the mid 20th Century because folks simply had no clue on how to care for them and information was a struggle to find? Since the 60s how many folks probably went to the local garden center asking for info and products to either be told "I don't know" or sold the wrong stuff due to staff that were clueless. Mainstream practice would mean when that guy gets his bonsai for Christmas maybe he can go down to the local nursery and find what he needs without being experienced and not kill it. Just like it doesn't take a farmer to grow vegetables it shouldn't take a special class of person to grow a tree. I can go to half a dozen stores 5 minutes away and buy mums or soil or even exotic orchids, but I have to go to Florida to get pumice. I can go in one store and find 15 different bypass pruners but have never seen a concave cutter.
The argument about bad information is somewhat ill founded as well. Aside from basic things like "keep your trees indoors" a lot of info is just "different". How often do we deviate from what books from 50 years ago suggest? The soil itself has completely changed from what was used previously. So wouldn't all those books recommending peat be considered "bad information" by the current standard? Mainstream bonsai would mean more info, more products, more resources. It would require those who actually are interested to be more attentive and aware when seeking info, but is being informed bad? Is blindly following the ONLY resource available good even if it is a Japanese book? We know that some Japanese trees don't do well in all of the widely varied US climates, so following that "good information" would kill a tree. Doesn't that likewise make that masterpiece book "bad information"?
And how many times have we heard the concept bonsai for peace? The whole intention was to create a global, mainstream art that could connect people.
I think commercialization and corporatization is a different matter. That's where the price gouging and junk pushing comes from. I think that aspect would be a guarantee in America because of how our companies operate unfortunately. You will get cheap shysters trying to make a buck selling substandard junk. As long as it's not the ONLY alternative then that's ok. Think of tools, as the OP mentioned pots. Right now you can spend a fortune buying professional grade tools (snap on, mac, Milwaukee, dewalt, etc) that are top of the line and will last a long time, or you can go to harbor frieght and buy a $3 pair of pliers, or a $30 electric saw. The point being there are options available depending on what tier you wish to be at. The first thing I bought was a set of 6 plastic pots from Bonsai Outlet, but I've just bought my first @sorce pot because I like them more than plain plastic. But the plastic gave me something to start with.
Also I think having the craft be more mainstream would be good for the trees. How many trees have died since they began mass importation in the mid 20th Century because folks simply had no clue on how to care for them and information was a struggle to find? Since the 60s how many folks probably went to the local garden center asking for info and products to either be told "I don't know" or sold the wrong stuff due to staff that were clueless. Mainstream practice would mean when that guy gets his bonsai for Christmas maybe he can go down to the local nursery and find what he needs without being experienced and not kill it. Just like it doesn't take a farmer to grow vegetables it shouldn't take a special class of person to grow a tree. I can go to half a dozen stores 5 minutes away and buy mums or soil or even exotic orchids, but I have to go to Florida to get pumice. I can go in one store and find 15 different bypass pruners but have never seen a concave cutter.
The argument about bad information is somewhat ill founded as well. Aside from basic things like "keep your trees indoors" a lot of info is just "different". How often do we deviate from what books from 50 years ago suggest? The soil itself has completely changed from what was used previously. So wouldn't all those books recommending peat be considered "bad information" by the current standard? Mainstream bonsai would mean more info, more products, more resources. It would require those who actually are interested to be more attentive and aware when seeking info, but is being informed bad? Is blindly following the ONLY resource available good even if it is a Japanese book? We know that some Japanese trees don't do well in all of the widely varied US climates, so following that "good information" would kill a tree. Doesn't that likewise make that masterpiece book "bad information"?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I guess if you haven't lived on the East Coast for the last 64 years, you know nothing of the Revolutionary War, Civil War, etc...;-) This is especially true if you're not a Virginian, after all my state was mostly the battleground for both...
Woocash
Omono
Who knew that Bonsai was just another appendage extension? There was me thinking it was all just about little trees... 
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
I mentioned nothing about books. And all I said about good and bad was that they were both available. Personally I believe it is all just information. I don't believe in a good or a bad, but almost everyone relates to it so they are the acceptable words to describe both sides of the coin. . Its just choices. I don't care what you do with it.
I was just using books as a frame of reference because 50 years ago that's all their was. There were no blogs or Chatrooms. Magazines maybe, but those weren't widely distributed. I was just pointing out that 50 years ago the books often said something, and now we are all around deviating from that advice, even in new books. it's not about books, but they are just an avenue for information.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
That is very true. Everything has changed in the past 50 years. I have watched and experienced much of it. Hard fast rules that had been used for 200 years about horticultural practices have been thrown out by modern research. The things that were tried and true when I started out gave good results so we kept doing them until people that were brave enough to question things turned it all on its end. I was lucky enough to study with Dr Shigo for awhile and he turned the biology of trees upside down. And he was right.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Thats true about the battle GROUND, but of course if you follow the money trail there are whole ghost towns in California still armed with cannons protecting the GOLD mined here to fund the war....
No revolutionary war here. Just their descendents.....
And I agree, we should all respect our states and their roles they had in whatever history. If you were trying to make a point out of it.
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sorce
Nonsense Rascal
This is a severely mismatched title and conversation.
We should be questioning the knowledge where these concepts came from, not discussing the concepts themselves.
Sorce
We should be questioning the knowledge where these concepts came from, not discussing the concepts themselves.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Don't feel bad.
He does that to everyone.
He doesn't seem to remember what it's like to just be starting out in bonsai apparently.
Even if you have an awesome tree don't post it and just let him think you don't.
Warpig
Chumono
I like to think, he just likes to test the bark on the new trees.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
you miss the point. It was -- just because I live in Va. it doesn't give me license to say "you all know nothing about the civil and revolutionary wars." I'm more intimately familiar with some of the details and locations, but my proximity to the locations of major events and sites in American history hardly gives me exclusive knowledge of them.Thats true about the battle GROUND, but of course if you follow the money trail there are whole ghost towns in California still armed with cannons protecting the GOLD mined here to fund the war....
No revolutionary war here. Just their descendents.....
And I agree, we should all respect our states and their roles they had in whatever history. If you were trying to make a point out of it.
Minnesota Madman
Yamadori
I like to think back on my brief history in doing bonsai sometimes, and I often wish there would have been more, or better information and many more... nouns... within my reach. What I mean to say is, I started with an empty, antique library table in my living room, and soon after an antique lamp was purchased and placed in the center of the table. Later, I thought "Oh! I should get me a couple of those banzai trees. One for each side of the lamp. They could be like mirror image from each other." I told somebody about my vision, and by chance Rick happened to be listening in. He said, "Ah Dan, that's bonsai, and I can help you a little - I was into that shit for a few years."
From there, I remember killing a grip of trees and really struggling to figure out why I couldn't quite get that pair of mirror imaged trees within the first couple months. I researched it as much as I could by reading 1980's and 1990's library books and quickly changed the pots from yard soil to play sand and peat, but still I killed them trees! We're skipping ahead to growing season 3 now, and I'm understanding that winter on the bench is doing a lot of damage, along with this soil that never drains properly, and I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. Growing season four, I'm getting pretty discouraged, but I continue my constant pinching and trimming, like the books are telling me to do - to keep them in shape, structural wiring on every branch on every tree, repotting twice per year as I learned about poultry grit and pine bark and lava, jin and shari work... The pieces of the puzzle were just not coming together. Worse than that, I'm not in contact with Rick any longer, so I have nobody to turn to.
Call me stupid, but I have an opinion on what regional interest in bonsai can, or more importantly, cannot do to a person's success in bonsai. I'm nearing the end of my fifth growing season now, and finally seeing the trees I want to see sitting on my bench. If you're not in your local bonsai club in Minnesota, there is NOBODY to turn to for real, live advice. Local garden centers be like "Banzai, whaaaaat?" I didn't have internet until this year, my fifth growing season, and THAT is when things began to change for me. I got my hands on some modern books, youtube videos, bonsai nut, et cetera. I still cannot get pots, wire, pumice, lava or akadama without being in the MBS, but the internet can solve that problem somewhat.
My point to a lot of this ramble is that demand can bring interest to a more broad audience because they are seeing the cute trees and tools and pots at their local gardening center, and increased interest can give rise to demand for more widely available product and information. I think I like where bonsai is at in Minnesota though, except for the lava thing... Bonsai is sort of underground here, and you really have to do the research to find what you're looking for. For me, I have an incredible amount of pride in what I have done this year and I owe it to the intense amount of science and opinion I have sifted through in the last 12 months to find what works in the upper Midwest.
I am a known rambler. Sorry about that. I'm actually going to keep going, lol. If I imagine bonsai on a level like the superbowl, I start to choke on my vomit a little. I think regionally, bonsai is maybe more mainstream than it needs to be in some places, and gives rise to pompous attitudes (like what's her name said about California for the last 64 years), and regionally it is a bit sparse in other places, like the Midwest. The vastly differing levels of exposure to bonsai can truly make or break a person's dedication to this hobby. I like obscure things, and bonsai is #1
From there, I remember killing a grip of trees and really struggling to figure out why I couldn't quite get that pair of mirror imaged trees within the first couple months. I researched it as much as I could by reading 1980's and 1990's library books and quickly changed the pots from yard soil to play sand and peat, but still I killed them trees! We're skipping ahead to growing season 3 now, and I'm understanding that winter on the bench is doing a lot of damage, along with this soil that never drains properly, and I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. Growing season four, I'm getting pretty discouraged, but I continue my constant pinching and trimming, like the books are telling me to do - to keep them in shape, structural wiring on every branch on every tree, repotting twice per year as I learned about poultry grit and pine bark and lava, jin and shari work... The pieces of the puzzle were just not coming together. Worse than that, I'm not in contact with Rick any longer, so I have nobody to turn to.
Call me stupid, but I have an opinion on what regional interest in bonsai can, or more importantly, cannot do to a person's success in bonsai. I'm nearing the end of my fifth growing season now, and finally seeing the trees I want to see sitting on my bench. If you're not in your local bonsai club in Minnesota, there is NOBODY to turn to for real, live advice. Local garden centers be like "Banzai, whaaaaat?" I didn't have internet until this year, my fifth growing season, and THAT is when things began to change for me. I got my hands on some modern books, youtube videos, bonsai nut, et cetera. I still cannot get pots, wire, pumice, lava or akadama without being in the MBS, but the internet can solve that problem somewhat.
My point to a lot of this ramble is that demand can bring interest to a more broad audience because they are seeing the cute trees and tools and pots at their local gardening center, and increased interest can give rise to demand for more widely available product and information. I think I like where bonsai is at in Minnesota though, except for the lava thing... Bonsai is sort of underground here, and you really have to do the research to find what you're looking for. For me, I have an incredible amount of pride in what I have done this year and I owe it to the intense amount of science and opinion I have sifted through in the last 12 months to find what works in the upper Midwest.
I am a known rambler. Sorry about that. I'm actually going to keep going, lol. If I imagine bonsai on a level like the superbowl, I start to choke on my vomit a little. I think regionally, bonsai is maybe more mainstream than it needs to be in some places, and gives rise to pompous attitudes (like what's her name said about California for the last 64 years), and regionally it is a bit sparse in other places, like the Midwest. The vastly differing levels of exposure to bonsai can truly make or break a person's dedication to this hobby. I like obscure things, and bonsai is #1
Warpig
Chumono
Thank you for the well thought out reply. And trust me, I get both sides of what you are trying to say. I guess that has been what lead to my posting this to begin with. I have to point out tho, you do know your post heavy contradicts it's self? If you had gotten your internet 5 years earlier and the world of bonsai opened up to you sooner, would it have been better or worse? For me, i think it was the point where I was figuring out for myself how seriously I wanted to take the hobby for myself.
Minnesota Madman
Yamadori
Yeah, I'm definitely torn on what's better for the whole of bonsai. Probably the simple answer is, it depends. I like where I'm at in my skill level and what's available locally - mostly. If it were on a grand scale, it doesn't seem like it would be as rewarding. Your original post and my reply started me wondering... Is everybody's initiation to bonsai basically the same?