Letter to the Older Heads

[Anthony]

The other day Dario mentioned he had bought a series called - Bonsai in California.
Never heard of it before and I got curious, went to Amazon and got Vol.4 1970.
I already have access to a few Bonsai books before 1970, to more or less the 50's.
[ much thanks to Dario ]

Bonsai back then, didn't quite look like Bonsai today. In fact I tend to prefer the older
stuff for the simplicity and probably the black and white photography is more familiar,
as I also grew up with B and W t.v.

We couldn't really go that way as tropical trees work more on mounds, and don't often have roots above ground. Truth be known, we are just starting to look at the Ficus for above ground rooting.

Anyhow, we went the way of observing many trees of one type in nature and then taking what was considered best and putting it back into the tree. However, we had to work with unknown trees, not the stuff seen in magazines,more guidelines to invent.

Anyhow, the rules/guides were 3 to 5 for Horticuture and 5 to 10 plus for Design.

Me - simpleton.
What I just realised, was that folk are going to their clubs and since the beginning stage of Bonsai is so visual, they can learn just by seeing or talking to their club members of experience.

They are now coming to the Internet and making claims about how fast they can learn. Without saying, I go to a club.
So naturally, they wouldn't need 3 to 5 years because they could mimic what works and jump ahead.
Additionally, they can easily buy trunks, trees and so on.

Whereas the older folk in Bonsai had to explore, and had less favorable situations.

Adair made a note of saying that John Naka, didn't know about Pine Work, because it was kept secret.Interesting.

So the Older heads may wish to temper their responses to so-called - Newbees - chuckle.

It seems that Bonsai may be moving into the realm of showing off. At least on the Internet.

Should be interesting to see how they absorb the Design aspect and get past the cookie cutter Bonsai, that folk are presently complaining about and the abundance.
This was sent only to explain and there is no "secret" attempt to get a rise out of folk.Okay.

I try to understand and explain. Human behaviour is fascinating.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

I know you are well meaning Anthony but based on the title, it has the making of another "train wreck" written all over it. LOL

Generations change, it is like comparing me with my kids on how to use cell phone, computers, the DVD player, etc. They dive into it as if it is nothing while I fumble.

Availability of learning material now is also vastly different compared to the olden times (by that I mean about 25 years or longer ago). As I always claimed, some can learn visually and I can do things others say impossible w/o taking classes. Not bragging, just stating how I learn (see computer and DVD player reference again).

My previous exposure probably helped also. Growing in the mountains with massive and majestic trees in forest, plains, riverside, cliffs, etc. IMHO helped. Again, most oldies here treat everyone as if previous life exposure don't count. They do.

My old hobbies also factor in, painting, wood working, carving, etc. while different contribute in bonsai. My education (engineering) touched biology, hydraulics, soil mechanics, etc. also shared. Small pieces of knowledge that when stitched together makes learning something new faster.

I hope we do not treat new to hobby as clueless little kids because honestly, most who come here lived considerably already...probably in their mid life.

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

I am consultant, dealing with oil and energy, that's as far as I go on my personal life. I am asked to travel to distant lands and work.

I work with technology as is it useful to me. I grew up with land lines and thus far no telephone call has ever missed me of some or such greater importance.I too have a cellphone with imaging capacity, I don't need the imaging.
I am not much impressed by technology, because I use what I need and adapt on a daily basis.

The problem is that folk who come to the Internet, used to be rank newbees, now we are getting, those with club knowledge, saying they are newbees.
So once again, it will have to be introduced, as an idea,--------- say if you are attending a club, and therefore why do you need an Internet forum to help??????
Bonsai is a hands on situation, images and discussions [ abstract ] don't work.

I didn't look at the last topic as trainwreck, but as poor manners.
You want to fight, take it outside.

Folk tend to behave very differently when there are moderators, and just how bad does someone have to be, to be banned from a forum such as this ??????????????
It boggles the mind.

Anyhow, hopefully, there will be less abrasion, as folk come forward and simply say, I attend a club.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

I am a club member but only attended (probably) 6 meetings in 2 years...3 of which are auction and a party. LOL Though there are great talents in my club and extremely nice people who are always willing to share enthusiastically...I didn't get anything new from them (probably because I didn't attend as much as I should). I do have a club member friend who visited me once and we talked bonsai, that helped me. I also volunteered in a Kathy Shaner led club collection maintenance session and I picked up some new stuff from her as well.

Then I attended a bonsai symposium where, I managed to pick the brains of 3 good bonsai masters but honestly...mostly just to confirm what I already know. The tree critique was by far my favorite part. Hearing what they see and would change drove some knowledge home. Something you knew or heard before but taken for granted and didn't realize the importance of. I've seen similar critiques locally but not the same level. Now I hunt for youtube critiques as much as possible. They are by far the best source of (nuggets of) info for me right now.

BTW, it is amusing to note that sometimes the 3 artists have conflicting things to say about a tree....just like here but it drives the preference factor which we must all be aware of and (though we don't have to agree or like) try to respect.

 

[edprocoat]

The way I look at it is, two heads are better than none.

ed

 

[Adair M]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I wanted to correct something that Anthony said I said:

John Naka did know about JBP WORK. But he knew the OLD schoolteacher techniques. Not the modern technique. The modern technique was discovered right about the same time John was publishing his books, so he was unaware of it. It wasn't kept "secret", in the literal sense, but the technique was passed along in very closed circles of the Japanese bonsai masters. It was years before it became "common knowledge".

John learned of the technique in his later years, but after he had written his books. So that's why his books do not have it in there.

I say this because many treat his books like the Bible.

 

[Poink88]

The way I look at it is, two heads are better than none.

ed

I agree and no one is questioning that. However, some cannot or do not have that option. Though I am a member who wish to attend as many meetings I can...I have other family matters to attend (that I give priority to) that sometimes inhibits me to go.

I've read others who want to but cannot find one within a reasonable distance...or something they can afford. Be aware that there are limitations that others have to face.

 

[M. Frary]

I've been doing bonsai for almost 30 years now all by myself. The only bonsai I ever saw were in books. Hell I didn't get internet until last year when I got this phone. Still no laptop or anything like that. Also where I live there is no clubs closer than 2 hours away. One of the first things I did on the internet was look up bonsai. I was flabbergasted. I didn't know that there were so many other people interested in this hobby. Or that one could buy a bonsai at a bonsai store. I had only seen my trees in person. I joined this forum and became what you people call a lurker. I was amazed at the quality of trees here done by everyday people.
Anthony is right. With all of the info available out there if someone pays attention to what these older more learned people have to say they are on the fast track to bonsai success. On the other hand just because someone has all of this information available to them doesn't they won't make mistakes. It's how we learn. Also there are going to be people like Dario that will take that information and process it and try to take it to the next level. It's how we advance in knowledge.
Since joining this forum I've even learned some things. I think. Just kidding. I know I've learned a lot just reading all of the threads here. And here is where some people ask the same questions and it gets old but then so am I. It's easier to ask the question than to find the answer for yourself. I for one try to reply to things I know about and not try to lord it over those that don't know as much on the subject as I. On the other hand if I cook up some harebrained idea and post it I should hope someone with more knowledge than myself might tell me it may not work. Will I try the idea? Maybe but probably not . Because the person has probably already been there before me.

 

[M. Frary]

Also some of us older guys get cranky. Especially when asked the same questions or when confronted with outright stupidity.
I think it is the geyser a$%hole affliction. (I like geyser better than geezer because at my age it is a better description!)
Sorry Vance. Can't leave it alone because it's just so dam funny when someone misspells a word and its better than the one originally intended.

 

[Oliver Muscio]

I'm with Mike here. I first became interested in Bonsai 40 years ago after a bonsai show in Salt Lake City. Started with a small barberry, which I had to discard at a border inspection station on the way to Schenectady, NY by way of Canada. Resumed my interest when I moved to Kentucky in 1976. No clubs nearby, nor anyone I knew of interested in bonsai. I only had books, and the first ones I had were poor, at that. Joined a Southern Illinois Club in the 90's. Meetings were around 1 1/2 hours away, but I enjoyed them. However, the club dissolved 2-3 years after I joined (I don't think I was responsible.) I briefly joined a Nashville club, which met evenings during the workweek and was more than a 2 hour drive distant. I never really made it to any meetings.
So, with nearly 40 years experience, I am barely beyond the novice stage in many respects, especially styling. I have few if any really good bonsai--maybe one or two OK, but not outstanding. Just goes to show that years of repeating mistakes does not make one an expert, and certainly not an artist.

None the less, I still enjoy the journey. Internet bonsai groups, such as this one, with the capability of displaying photos have helped a lot, and, now that I am retired, I have rejoined the Nashville Bonsai Society.
Oliver

 

[A Random User]

Without trying to start another train wreck...
I am not sure how things are done in the part of the world
Where the OP is from...
But, I gotta totally disagree with the statement made regarding
The roots of the ficus... Bonsai artist have been working their
Roots since before most of the books and pics that are being referred
To were published....

I guess this is just case of Experience over theories...
Sorry, but the OP set himself up for that one.
Have a nice day !!!

 

[Anthony]

Sawgrass,

you really are a silly billy. If you didn't understand the statement, let me clarify.One we only have so far 2 usable - native - ficuses.

Ficus b, and all the others you might know are imports.

Plus, we have spent so much time working on local trees, we are now looking at the local ficus and it's ability to grow surface roots. We couldn't even grow a ficus properly, had to ask for the help of a Danish Lady on IBC.
We were doing crap.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[GrimLore]

You cannot learn unless you try a species and for that I respect you. Time, Love, and more Time makes it all work...

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Sawgrass,

you really are a silly billy. If you didn't understand the statement, let me clarify.One we only have so far 2 usable - native - ficuses.

Ficus b, and all the others you might know are imports.

Plus, we have spent so much time working on local trees, we are now looking at the local ficus and it's ability to grow surface roots. We couldn't even grow a ficus properly, had to ask for the help of a Danish Lady on IBC.
We were doing crap.
Good Day
Anthony

Well... let me ask you who " WE" are then ???
Because if you are including "US" here in the states,
Then your comment is incorrect...

Also, if you are going to exclude imports, one must exclude
John Naka's Goshen seeing that it is a fomenia juniper, a cultivar
Of the Chinese juniper, Shimpakus, Japanese Black Pines, and a whole
List of things "we" were working on back in the day ???

 

[Anthony]

Sawgrass,

we, my brother-in-law and myself.

You do realise that I am writing from the West Indies?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[A Random User]

OK... just went back and re-read your Intial post
For this thread, so as to try and be fair and not start
Up a "train wreck", or miss understand you, or even
Go off the deep end...

I gotta say... you either have a totally different bonsai
Experience going on where you are from, or so incorrect
On so many points regarding the history of bonsai in
The western hemisphere... that I will leave you to your
Perfect utopian vision, and bow out if the continued
Pipedream you are pushing...

### EDIT.... Ok... now this all starting to make sense !!!
Hey if you and your brother, cousin, family, want to all chime
In, then cool. But, you guys need to study a little more history
If what was going on, and when posting be more specific on
Which "WE" you are referring too...

 

[Anthony]

Sawgrass,

you don't seem to understand that we are using / testing trees/shrubs, that don't exist in much of the Bonsai world. My island pulls more heavily on the Amazonian type vegetation, since we were once part of Venezuela.

So what we are working on will often not even exist on the other West Indian islands. They have to be collected as saplings and grown for at least 3 years to decode.
They run on a dry weather / wet weather cycle and sleep from Christmas until the end of February or sometimes March. Our Ficus p. is deciduous for one month, and returns first with bronze leaves.
We have large areas of deciduous by dry weather jungle.
You have to observe the cycles.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Sawgrass,

sigh.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[GrimLore]

Honest I have been able to separate what my friend Anthony is referring to as "we" and I appreciate that sawgrass sees the difference now. On any Forum including my game forum it is sometimes a little hard to understand what others are saying even if in English.
As in Bonsai we must all look at all we do in a SLOW way including posts and the origin as to better understand. It is not a bad habit and would/could result in a far more peaceful community.
Just my 2 cents based on years, not a theory, experience, proven fact - just an observation.

Grimmy

 

[Anthony]

Sawgrass,

here are two new plants for Bonsai -

oxy [ a very long latin name ] defoliated and in leaf
Will drop all of it's leaves when dry and cover itself in tiny white stars.
Still have to learn how to get the stars, without hurting the shrub.

secondly - Fustic [ Maclura t.]
Shows high branchlet density and has elm type leaves, excellent surface roots.

and just for fun a third - Oxalis f.
Beautiful yellow flowers and the wood is very dark brown, with bright green leaves.
Very leaf dense.

Now we begin the real training. See you in 5 to 10 years.
Good Day
Anthony