Letting Young Trees Grow vs. Constant Training

[DrTolhur]

A lot of videos I see about training and pruning bonsai trees shows fairly large trees with lots of extra branches and growth. It seems like there's always lots of cutting going on. But as I look at my young bonsais, there's just not all that extra stuff that needs to be removed. So I'm wondering how one decides whether to just let a young tree grow (largely) unchecked for a while until it gets crazy before doing any branch removal or keeping an eye on new growth and constantly removing things you don't want, keeping branches shorter, etc. Hopefully that makes sense.

For instance, I have a Fukien tea that is not all that big, but the branches it has are pretty well hardened off. I'm not sure how many I'll be keeping, but it seems better in this instance to let it grow for a while and develop some fresh growth and foliage before I do much to it. However, in the case of a small Chinese elm (I assume it's a cutting), it has lots of branches that I know will end up being either cut back hard or off altogether. For this one, I'm less certain of which route to take. I'm currently thinking the same thing here -- just letting it get some size for a while -- but if I know I don't want some branches (and they're not sacrificial), why let the tree keep putting energy there? Why not keep it focused on growing where I want starting now?

I've attached a couple of pictures just for reference of what I'm talking about, but my question is more asking about in general, how one determines to allow longer-term growth vs. keeping growth focused and intentional. Comments either generally or about these trees are welcome. Thanks.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Would you cook a package of hot dogs, eat one and throw the other seven away? Or do you take one out of the package cook it and put the others back in the refer? How much wood do you want to cast off after you have spent the time growing it? The branch that is growing where you don't want it for the finished design or as a sacrifice branch starts as a bud. You can flick it off with a fingernail and the plant will shift growth someplace else. If you keep removing buds from unwanted positions, eventually the growth will occur where you want it. The amount of plant material lost in this process verses ignoring growth and adjusting it on a yearly or other semi-long term basis is substantial. Everyone decides what their time is worth verses the plant's time/wood. Or not. Some people just let it happen. And, scars...

 

[Mycin]

Yes but if rapid trunk development is the goal, it is better to leave the tree largely undisturbed, no? That was my understanding - maximize foliage and thereby nutrient uptake/production.

 

[ShadyStump]

I'd say it's entirely an artistic choice, or at least personal style.
Let it grow out unchecked and get one effect. Keep it cut back and get another.
Lose track of it for longer than you planned, and there's another.
Sometimes you have to let a tree go so it can build it's health back up after the stress of being perfectly maintained for a while, or to change styles, or just because you're bored.
Personaly, I'm a proponent of the phylosophy that there's no such thing as a finished product, so I'm (painfully) staying my hand.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I learned very slowly that I have to let it grow.
in the beginning for me I would prune too often.
I eventually learned to remove what will not be used in the finished design.
Work toward your goals but let it grow too.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Also, sacrifice branches. I haven’t met a species yet that doesn’t respond well to expedited development and training at the same time... well maybe not ginkgo.

 

[Potawatomi13]

One, 2 or several sacrifice branches allowed to grow make trunk bigger faster. However none of these should shade/crowd out lower keeper branches beginning development which can be worked on as trunk grows. For most trees trunk size development is first primary goal.

 

[Shibui]

There is no one right way to bonsai. As already mentioned different techniques give different results. You may also use a combination of grow or prune at different times in the development of a tree.
Regular pruning and controlled growth definitely give a superior, scar free bonsai but will take many years.
Free growth definitely gives a larger trunk quicker but will many will have some faults. Free growth often changes the tree shape so much that the original style aimed for is completely gone but new opportunities usually appear.
Grow and more regular cutbacks (halfway between free and completely controlled) is another option.
Control of some parts while allowing free growth of others, such as sacrifice branches, gives another response.

Knowing how a plant will respond to the different techniques allows us to use the best one at the appropriate time to achieve a desired outcome.
With all techniques there is still possibility for failure. That's part of working with living things.

Good luck with all growing attempts. Keep trying new ideas to see if they are useful

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I'm going with continuous training, but that does mean that people are telling me that I'm fiddling with sticks instead of doing bonsai. That's alright with me. It's not always alright for the others though.
Continuous training for me means that I work every tree a little bit every year. There's nothing I just let grow unchecked for 365 days; I adjust bends, remove strong tips, adjust the roots, and so on. Sometimes it's small stuff, sometimes it's bonsai techniques on trees that aren't even pre-bonsai. I learn what works and what doesn't before they're big and fat and require refined techniques.
In 10 years I'll have trees without serious scarring, weird bulges or flaws that come with rapid thickening, not to forget about wood density; slow growing trees have more rings per diameter, because they don't add as much every year. My personal goal is to avoid heavy trunk chops on deciduous trees, because I personally don't like what they look like afterwards. That's an artistic choice.

There's nothing wrong with growing trees a different way. I have a huge respect for Telperion farms for instance, and what they achieve in that little time is amazing. @cmeg1 is doing great too! If he wasn't on the other side of the ocean, I'd sure buy some of his trees.

 

[Cadillactaste]

There has to be a middle ground...Dennis mentions in this podcast, the reason you can't allow them to just continue to grow. Growing out yes...but if you let them grow unchecked to long the bud placement on the branch changes...You don't want that. Some good things talked about in this podcast. Sharing if ones are interested.

Dennis Vojtilla

Dennis Vojtilla has been cultivating bonsai for over 40 years. He is well known for his deciduous work, and the unique use of grape vines for bonsai. In this podcast, Ryan, Lime & Dennis discuss his approach to bonsai and the complex world of grape-growing.

player.fm

 

[Anthony]

1 - Height of tree to trunk size = 1 inch trunk to 6 inch [ height ]

2 - What is your Design ? Heght ?

3 - Take cuttings - experiment on them - not the mother

 

[leatherback]

One thing not to forget.. Trees need growth to stay healthy. They replace leaves. sap veins, roots. All this, requires growth. The more growth, the stronger the tree becomes, making it easier to do the work we want to do.

I let my trees grow out for a long time. Mostly a few months, before cutting back. I get strong backbudding this way. If I need to close big chops, I let them grow longer. I have maples with 6 foot branches on them trying to close a 4inch chop on a tree I bought from a "gardenplant grower" in fall.

I am not convinced it is in the best interest of the tree to continuously remove all growth in places that you do not like.

 

[penumbra]

Try everything if you have the time and space. This will be your best teacher.
Do what others say is right.
Do what others say is wrong.
Be patient, it is an endless trail.

 

[sorce]

I am not convinced it is in the best interest of the tree to continuo

I think for some trees, it may be. Definitely not doubting your observation.

That for me is the entire catch 22 regardless of what will be appropriate in the future.

You have to let it grow to know what that will do.
You have to cut it back to know what that will do.

For Me. PPB or, keeping potential problems at bay, answers the question proposed here.

It depends, PPB addresses specific it depends'.

That's what makes it the perfect tool. Thanks @garywood .

Sorce

 

[Forsoothe!]

Yes, more than one way to skin a cat, but really only two kinds of feline: slowly tapering or big & scared. We artists verses you hatchet jobs.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yoda says, “Feel the balance you must!”

DSD sends

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

If you keep cutting on something as young and small as the FT in your photos, eventually there will be nothing left to cut. Yours looks very clipped, and I’d let all of that new growth grow out shoots with at least 10 leaves, then you can cut them back to leave 2 leaves. Ideally those 2 leaves will each produce a new shoot, and you repeat the process. It’s called “clip and grow”, but really it’s “grow and clip”.

Good growth is required to develop strength, ramification, and a sustainable plant.

A post illustrating using how trees grow to build branching:

Building ramification

Trees grow from the tips, gaining mass behind them. In bonsai the goal is to control how the tips grow (shape and balance) and manage how they gain the mass along the way. We use that growth in man…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

Deciding whether to cut or allow branches to grow depends on what you’re trying to achieve. Letting branches run will thicken parts of the tree, but should not be ultimately part of the design. They’re called sacrifice branches.

Sacrifice branches, deciduous

It’s difficult to get good shots of trees growing in the ground, but aside from collecting or buying from someone else doing this, it’s a good way to develop material for the future. Th…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

 

[Bonsai Nut]

There is no one right way to bonsai.

I agree. I think of bonsai like a concert, and you are the conductor. You have a large number of tools - instruments and performers - at your call. Each has their own best use to achieve a desired result. When you guide it properly, an orchestra becomes a piece of art. When you don't, it becomes a train wreck...