Literati Class This Weekend

Silentrunning

Chumono
Messages
676
Reaction score
1,036
Location
Warrenton North Carolina
USDA Zone
7a
Could we have some before and after pictures? Literati looks so easy but in truth it is very difficult to do correctly for a beginner like me.
 

Tidal Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
2,854
Location
Brick NJ (USA)
USDA Zone
7a
Could we have some before and after pictures? Literati looks so easy but in truth it is very difficult to do correctly for a beginner like me.

Absolutely! I brought a pitch pine from home to work on, and there is collected material provided for the class (it’s a 9:30-4:30 class tomorrow). When I saw the class material, we will get to draw straws for medium size ponderosa pine, limber pine, lodge pole pine, and some spruce! I can’t wait to get there tonight and see them up close!!!
 

Tidal Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
2,854
Location
Brick NJ (USA)
USDA Zone
7a
Could we have some before and after pictures? Literati looks so easy but in truth it is very difficult to do correctly for a beginner like me.

Literati/Bunjin is difficult to do for anyone! I wish I had some “ancient Chinese secret” to share, but that’s not the case. If I can sum up what I learned in a few words, it would be this:

I always laugh about the “rules/guidelines” in bonsai. They say there are no rules, but when you put a conifer in a glazed pot, everyone and their mother will call you out on it, lol! There are “guidelines” to Literati/Bunjin, that you can read in any book (e.g. they generally go in round pots, have sparse foliage, have branches on the top 1/3 of the tree, lack classic taper, etc.). These will get you to what you see online, but there has to be something much deeper than that to truely pay homage to the style!

Literati is a style without a style, it needs to truly express something from the artist! Jim told us that in the past, only Japanese Masters were allowed to make a tree in this style, because only they could evoke something this special from a tree in a container.
 

GGB

Masterpiece
Messages
2,067
Reaction score
2,222
Location
Bethlehem, PA
USDA Zone
7a
WHATTTT!? how did I not know about this? I was supposed to go to natures way last weekend and my plans got blown
 

Tidal Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
2,854
Location
Brick NJ (USA)
USDA Zone
7a
This is a the only Pitch Pine nursery stock I have ever seen in person. This was the last one that they had, and would be the last from what they told me. It was cleaned and taken out of the nursery can to be mostly left alone this season. It is young enough (8-10 years old) that wiring and bending can be done to set it for the future.
 

Attachments

  • B2B51BC4-45C0-4453-AAA2-E8BD33F72000.jpeg
    B2B51BC4-45C0-4453-AAA2-E8BD33F72000.jpeg
    792 KB · Views: 81
  • 785F90CE-1A82-473B-BBF7-B169C557C9A6.jpeg
    785F90CE-1A82-473B-BBF7-B169C557C9A6.jpeg
    534.6 KB · Views: 80
  • 97356995-332E-4FF0-8CBD-79F74AA1AD9A.jpeg
    97356995-332E-4FF0-8CBD-79F74AA1AD9A.jpeg
    484.5 KB · Views: 76
  • 9E910DB9-7AA6-4BF5-AB3B-F9A15F7EA610.jpeg
    9E910DB9-7AA6-4BF5-AB3B-F9A15F7EA610.jpeg
    672.2 KB · Views: 95

Tidal Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
2,854
Location
Brick NJ (USA)
USDA Zone
7a
I will not dare call this tree a literati by any means. This is a NJ native that still has years ahead of it under the care of another NJ native! The Pitch Pine naturally grows a wavy trunk with extreme movement and foliage on the top 1/4-1/3 of the tree. I wanted to represent its natural growth habit in miniature with this design.

There is no apex set yet, this tree was super LEGGY. All this accomplished was setting lines in the primary branches, and giving myself options for the future. This season is about getting the wire to hold the branches in place before we start building an apex, ramification, and minimize/simplify the branching. The tree has many good sides and options for the future, which was my main goal!
 

Attachments

  • 4E144E75-A622-4BF4-A068-100123911975.jpeg
    4E144E75-A622-4BF4-A068-100123911975.jpeg
    247.6 KB · Views: 98
  • F9756670-C628-43DD-A151-841AD986E554.jpeg
    F9756670-C628-43DD-A151-841AD986E554.jpeg
    190.9 KB · Views: 101
  • B6738D13-7022-4E9D-B393-9F714CD60D92.jpeg
    B6738D13-7022-4E9D-B393-9F714CD60D92.jpeg
    172.7 KB · Views: 98
  • CFE398AE-5F53-4AE9-962E-0F96EF6D477F.jpeg
    CFE398AE-5F53-4AE9-962E-0F96EF6D477F.jpeg
    337.7 KB · Views: 92
  • 26BA5C70-9E4D-436A-8205-1F26C67440B6.jpeg
    26BA5C70-9E4D-436A-8205-1F26C67440B6.jpeg
    661 KB · Views: 102

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
May I suggest you research into putting some bends in the trunk. Think rebar, blocks of wood as spacers, jacks and guy wires.
 

Tidal Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
2,854
Location
Brick NJ (USA)
USDA Zone
7a
May I suggest you research into putting some bends in the trunk. Think rebar, blocks of wood as spacers, jacks and guy wires.


Yes, exaggerating the bends in the trunk are 100% in the plan, I just didn’t want to do too much at once. Once the top heals, I can work on the bottom trunk. Thanks Adair!
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
13,751
Reaction score
23,250
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
Just wondering why the top work was done first? I would have done the lower bends first, as you my find that low bends might kill a branch up top. Also I would think that the lower part of the tree would determine the shape father upper tree instead of the other way around. Not criticizing just interested in the reasoning behind the order of work.
 

Tidal Bonsai

Omono
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
2,854
Location
Brick NJ (USA)
USDA Zone
7a
The reason that the top work was done first is that those were the most severe bends in the design, with the highest probability of failure. The trunk bends are going to exaggerate the movement that is already there (unlike the top bends, where the trunk and branches were twisted into a ball).

Pitch pines are very flexible and durable, I have 100% confidence that none of this work will create any issues.
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
13,751
Reaction score
23,250
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
The reason that the top work was done first is that those were the most severe bends in the design, with the highest probability of failure. The trunk bends are going to exaggerate the movement that is already there (unlike the top bends, where the trunk and branches were twisted into a ball).

Pitch pines are very flexible and durable, I have 100% confidence that none of this work will create any issues.
Thank you for the explanation, makes perfect sense to me now.
 

Silentrunning

Chumono
Messages
676
Reaction score
1,036
Location
Warrenton North Carolina
USDA Zone
7a
When I first got interested in bonsai I really disliked literati. Now it is one of my favorites - to observe, not build. The problem I have is that I have seen many full sized Pine trees that would make awesome literati in scale. When I look at them they are beautiful. Then I look at many bonsai literati and they look like someone has tortured the tree to see how close to death they can bring it without actually killing it. No thought is given to how such a tree would have formed in nature.
 

MichaelS

Masterpiece
Messages
2,013
Reaction score
4,733
Location
Australia
"Brewing and Bonsai, post:
Literati .......... needs to truly express something from the artist! Jim told us that in the past, only Japanese Masters were allowed to make a tree in this style, because only they could evoke something this special from a tree in a container
.

Completely the reverse. The literati should not express anything from an artist. That's why they are so difficult and next to impossible to ''create''. Literati just either happens by accident in the pot or naturally in nature. If you can see human work on the tree, it is a fake. if literati is designed from the start it will most probably fail.
Don't get me wrong, there's no harm in trying and I don't presume to know what to do but I think I know enough that you cannot design it. It is quite possible that a tree designed as a literati could become one over the years if neglected for long enough or given to an novice who does not wire it or feed it much and just clips in when he might think of it and some of the lower branches die back and the whole thing takes on a desperate look to it. Maybe then it might begin to look like/be a literati. But If we sit down with material and decide we are going to create one we are just kidding ourselves or perhaps do not understand what it means.
The closest thing to a literati I have seen is this tree. I'm sure there are many others out there. (most of the literati examples proclaimed as literati in the magazines and albums are obviously fakes). When most people approach the tree with wire thinking they know where the branch should be they ususaly fail. Wire is the natural enemy of literati and so is the desire and vision of the ''artist''.

oldspruce.JPG
 

Potawatomi13

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,168
Reaction score
4,403
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8
Absolutely! I brought a pitch pine from home to work on, and there is collected material provided for the class (it’s a 9:30-4:30 class tomorrow). When I saw the class material, we will get to draw straws for medium size ponderosa pine, limber pine, lodge pole pine, and some spruce! I can’t wait to get there tonight and see them up close!!!

Oooh. Ahhh;). Pictures of other trees?
 
Last edited:

SantaFeBonsai

Shohin
Messages
422
Reaction score
4,317
.

Completely the reverse. The literati should not express anything from an artist. That's why they are so difficult and next to impossible to ''create''. Literati just either happens by accident in the pot or naturally in nature. If you can see human work on the tree, it is a fake. if literati is designed from the start it will most probably fail.
Don't get me wrong, there's no harm in trying and I don't presume to know what to do but I think I know enough that you cannot design it. It is quite possible that a tree designed as a literati could become one over the years if neglected for long enough or given to an novice who does not wire it or feed it much and just clips in when he might think of it and some of the lower branches die back and the whole thing takes on a desperate look to it. Maybe then it might begin to look like/be a literati. But If we sit down with material and decide we are going to create one we are just kidding ourselves or perhaps do not understand what it means.
The closest thing to a literati I have seen is this tree. I'm sure there are many others out there. (most of the literati examples proclaimed as literati in the magazines and albums are obviously fakes). When most people approach the tree with wire thinking they know where the branch should be they ususaly fail. Wire is the natural enemy of literati and so is the desire and vision of the ''artist''.

View attachment 216160



I think your interpretation is a little too absolute.

EDB1743D-85B2-4D46-A015-D2C8BCF13D99.jpeg
 

Josh88

Shohin
Messages
487
Reaction score
1,518
Location
Redmond Oregon
Something to consider getting back to the idea of wiring the branches before the trunk... I made the same decision on a bunjin style I have been working on, and I didn't have wire thick enough at the time to put movement in the trunk, and knew it wouldn't be too stiff to do down the road, so I wired the branches down to set my basic structure. When I came back to wire the trunk, all of my primary branches that were wired down made it extremely difficult to wire the trunk effectively as I got closer to the canopy, since I had to keep pulling the wire back down to get underneath the branch structure I had created. I was not able to get the thick wire to fit snug against the upper trunk, and I wound up with gaps in my wraps that proved less effective than I would have liked. I'm not sure my explanation here will give you a clear picture of what I'm talking about, but I promised myself after this experience that I will always wire the trunk before I pull my primary branches down. It may not wind up being relevant with your tree, but just wanted to share my experiences.
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
13,751
Reaction score
23,250
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
.

Completely the reverse. The literati should not express anything from an artist. That's why they are so difficult and next to impossible to ''create''. Literati just either happens by accident in the pot or naturally in nature. If you can see human work on the tree, it is a fake. if literati is designed from the start it will most probably fail.
Don't get me wrong, there's no harm in trying and I don't presume to know what to do but I think I know enough that you cannot design it. It is quite possible that a tree designed as a literati could become one over the years if neglected for long enough or given to an novice who does not wire it or feed it much and just clips in when he might think of it and some of the lower branches die back and the whole thing takes on a desperate look to it. Maybe then it might begin to look like/be a literati. But If we sit down with material and decide we are going to create one we are just kidding ourselves or perhaps do not understand what it means.
The closest thing to a literati I have seen is this tree. I'm sure there are many others out there. (most of the literati examples proclaimed as literati in the magazines and albums are obviously fakes). When most people approach the tree with wire thinking they know where the branch should be they ususaly fail. Wire is the natural enemy of literati and so is the desire and vision of the ''artist''.

View attachment 216160
Interesting to me that I don't see this tree as literati. More as a ancient character tree.
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
4,147
Reaction score
8,758
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
I should have posted this in my other literati topic, but it may be good to put it here. I apologize for any inconvenience it may cause. Literati is one of styles which I like the most! Si Nguyen has same taste as mine. He has got many beautiful elm literati which he created from root cuttings. By the way, Si doesn’t post here any more! What a pity!
One can create literati bonsai either from yamadori or from the crash ( from seedling). With yamadori, because most of literati characters are already there, it will not take much time to transform it to bonsai. With seedling, it will cost one a lot of time, patience and love to create one, but it is worth! When the tree still very young, I wired and bent them a lot. Then when they turn to 4 years old, I started using cut and grow mostly and wire only as needed. I don’t dictate the tree but let the tree guide me. The tre and I work together to the final goal to which I am the one to control ? . To me, training the tree just as same as raise the kids.
These are 10 year old Korean Black pine seedlings. They are far to the final stage but they are getting there year by year!

5B70B3FF-9BE6-40C4-B1DD-8319EBAFED3C.jpeg 9DCC0B5C-048E-42BD-967D-5E2DA7A1441C.jpeg 8307172B-890D-4604-AF0F-2C054DE5A39A.jpeg
Happy growing literati ?
Thụ Thoại
 
Top Bottom