Lowering water PH with vinegar

MrWunderful

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Anyone use a siphon to lower their water PH with vinegar? I am trying out a really simple minimum effort setup that makes my super hard water (8.0-9.0) get down to about 7.0-7.5. I think I will be able to just get it under 7.0 with some fine tuning.

Right now I am using store bought vinegar (5%) at a ratio of 1:40. Ill share my setup and some tests tomorrow. Its with a 16$ hozon siphon filter and a 5 gal bucket.

My maples are healthy, but always end up with some leaf tip browning that I think is from lack of nutrient uptake. My trees have always been “overall” healthy, but not like some of the local bonsai professionals gardens I see. I also have a really weak stewartia that I think is from being fed with water too alkaline. Hoping it will make my pines a bit more vigorous too.

Going to try to stay vigilant about using the vinegar dilution until next summer as well as supplement my fertilizing with a seaweed/humic/fulmic acid blend and see if my trees overall health improve.

Comments/discussion/pics of setups welcome.
 

garywood

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Mrful, first off: As large a reservoir as possible for mixing reservoir. That helps with consistency. If you are shooting for a ph range, why not go for a range that gives "most" trees a preferable range? 5-6.5.
Whatever siphon you use and whatever reservoir you use it requires testing for your setup. Take notes on how many gallons of water and how many ounces of vinegar give you the ph you want out of the hose.
Just remember that the ph measure is logarithmic
 
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Every year I add a 1/2" in the fall and turn in spring. When the border fills I remove all needles and repeat. No reason this cannot be done on a smaller scale to a maple in need. Another consideration would be adding some clay to your media next time you root prune. So many ways to tackle this issue. Keep trying till you find what works. Best of luck. 🖖🏻
 

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MrWunderful

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Mrful, first off: As large a reservoir as possible for mixing reservoir. That helps with consistency. If you are shooting for a ph range, why not go for a range that gives "most" trees a preferable range? 5-6.5.
Whatever siphon you use and whatever reservoir you use it requires testing for your setup. Take notes on how many gallons of water and how many ounces of vinegar give you the ph you want out of the hose.
Just remember that the ph measure is logarithmic
Great question. I figured the trees are still healthy at 8.0-8.5, better to lower it slower than quicker.

I dont know what logarithmic means, but 8 oz of vinegar to 320oz water gets me to ph of 7.0. Is it true that trees like 5-6? Do you have any thing I can research? I always heard 6-7 ph but that may be incorrect.
 

MrWunderful

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Every year I add a 1/2" in the fall and turn in spring. When the border fills I remove all needles and repeat. No reason this cannot be done on a smaller scale to a maple in need. Another consideration would be adding some clay to your media next time you root prune. So many ways to tackle this issue. Keep trying till you find what works. Best of luck. 🖖🏻
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at? My soil mix works great for my maples, and not sure what needles you are referring to.
 
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I’m not quite sure what you are getting at? My soil mix works great for my maples, and not sure what needles you are referring to.
In this example creeping yew was used. But really any acid producing needle can be used. When your tree takes up moisture between your vinegar watering, they will help to soften the water as well.
 

TN_Jim

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Pine bark will lower your pH over time I believe.
What you seem to be talking about is perhaps not pH specifically, but the pH of your bonsai mix itself.

Most of the soils used for bonsai are volcanic or basically just rocks. That said, sometimes I feed my trees heavily (not tea bags -too many animals) and the it rains profusely for a couple of days. Are they getting those nutrients?

I try to let the de dry some since it has a higher cec and holds more water, but doesn’t it still wash out...and boons mix the same -when you are depending on akadama to hold the majority of your nutrients, watering daily in summer, nutrients it seems will ebb and flow...

So, I’ve been using sifted pine soil conditioner...not with all but have yet to see ill reaction. I too have seen a heavy use of pine fines in nursery potting with success.

I’ve heard that there is a problem with repotting, that it damages roots when you have to deal with them growing through the acidic pine material, oddly I’ve also heard that this is impart why akadama is ideal. Don’t fight it?

Lotta limestone (buffer) around here..

I just this year got a couple of J. maples...this one I literally pulled out of the dead/dump pile 5-6 weeks ago is in the pumice n’ dirt whatever it was in and “repotted/potted” with unsifted pine. I honestly gave up on it and it just came back a couple of weeks after bringing home.

It’s not really acidic soil right?...it’s just the conditions in place to allow certain species to have available micro and macro nutrients as they have evolved over time with the soil of their native habitat. Whatever that is a bonsai pot is not native habitat (at first?).

Perhaps a food processor and a slurry of pine needles...I’m honestly not kidding :confused:🍳🤧
 

Traken

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I dont know what logarithmic means, but 8 oz of vinegar to 320oz water gets me to ph of 7.0. Is it true that trees like 5-6? Do you have any thing I can research? I always heard 6-7 ph but that may be incorrect.

Logarithmic means that each change in pH number is a magnitude of 10, rather than 1 like a linear scale. For instance, a pH of 6 is 10 times more acidic than 7, and 5 is 100 times more acidic than 7.

I believe the trees liking 6-7 is more a sort of catch all for in ground trees, since one doesn't have the same freedom/ability to control what the tree receives like we can do with containerized trees.
 

MrWunderful

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Logarithmic means that each change in pH number is a magnitude of 10, rather than 1 like a linear scale. For instance, a pH of 6 is 10 times more acidic than 7, and 5 is 100 times more acidic than 7.

I believe the trees liking 6-7 is more a sort of catch all for in ground trees, since one doesn't have the same freedom/ability to control what the tree receives like we can do with containerized trees.
Ok thanks for clarifying that. Is there general consensus on the PH that “most” species like in a containerized enivornment?
 

MrWunderful

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Pine bark will lower your pH over time I believe.
What you seem to be talking about is perhaps not pH specifically, but the pH of your bonsai mix itself.

Most of the soils used for bonsai are volcanic or basically just rocks. That said, sometimes I feed my trees heavily (not tea bags -too many animals) and the it rains profusely for a couple of days. Are they getting those nutrients?

I try to let the de dry some since it has a higher cec and holds more water, but doesn’t it still wash out...and boons mix the same -when you are depending on akadama to hold the majority of your nutrients, watering daily in summer, nutrients it seems will ebb and flow...

So, I’ve been using sifted pine soil conditioner...not with all but have yet to see ill reaction. I too have seen a heavy use of pine fines in nursery potting with success.

I’ve heard that there is a problem with repotting, that it damages roots when you have to deal with them growing through the acidic pine material, oddly I’ve also heard that this is impart why akadama is ideal. Don’t fight it?

Lotta limestone (buffer) around here..

I just this year got a couple of J. maples...this one I literally pulled out of the dead/dump pile 5-6 weeks ago is in the pumice n’ dirt whatever it was in and “repotted/potted” with unsifted pine. I honestly gave up on it and it just came back a couple of weeks after bringing home.

It’s not really acidic soil right?...it’s just the conditions in place to allow certain species to have available micro and macro nutrients as they have evolved over time with the soil of their native habitat. Whatever that is a bonsai pot is not native habitat (at first?).

Perhaps a food processor and a slurry of pine needles...I’m honestly not kidding :confused:🍳🤧

The high ph in water causes certain elements to fall out of suspension, like calcium. Thats where I think my deficiency is coming from. I understand that raising the ph in the soil might work, but it is much harder to control, measure and adjust. I am trying to make it as easy and fool proof as possible.
 
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Great question. I figured the trees are still healthy at 8.0-8.5, better to lower it slower than quicker.

I dont know what logarithmic means, but 8 oz of vinegar to 320oz water gets me to ph of 7.0. Is it true that trees like 5-6? Do you have any thing I can research? I always heard 6-7 ph but that may be incorrect.

I found these to be difficult because I never went to college and HS was a blur. I would still recommend that you start here. Top to bottom, left to right would be helpful. FYI there is nothing simple about Soil Science Simplified. If your feeling froggy after that read Dirr and Heuser.
 

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Mellow Mullet

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I guess my assertion is why adjust the pH of your soil when you can have your mix adjust your pH. Too wet with organic... adjust watering or more rock..?
Nice Maple, TNJ, and great save. You might want to cut those three lower limbs with the green leaves off. That is the root stock that the dissectum was grafted to. I may grow more vigorous that the sicon and cause the grafted material to fail.

John
 

Mellow Mullet

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This is the time of year that most Japanese maples start to look a little ratty, especially the tips of the leaves, it really doesn't have much to do with the pH. Could be fungal also. The pH doesn't really matter all that much when you are growning trees in pots of basically small rocks. And accurately measuring it is not really possible unless you have access to lab quality instruments that are calibrated frequently. pH paper, home depot meters, and pool water kits are not very accurate. Save the vinegar for your salad and add a little pine bark or sphagnum moss to your soil.
 
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Nice Maple, TNJ, and great save. You might want to cut those three lower limbs with the green leaves off. That is the root stock that the dissectum was grafted to. I may grow more vigorous that the sicon and cause the grafted material to fail.

And if your super lucky and keep them very short, there is a chance a hybrid will grow on the graft. Until you do or don't hit the lotto, they can be kept very short without allowing Dichotomous branching. They should just thicken the trunk for a minute. Conventional wisdom says get rid of em.
 
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Nice Maple, TNJ, and great save. You might want to cut those three lower limbs with the green leaves off. That is the root stock that the dissectum was grafted to. I may grow more vigorous that the sicon and cause the grafted material to fail.

If you decide to try this don't let them get taller than your first active node growing after the graft and use a hole punch on many of its leaves to simulate an attack. Leave the lower leaves intact to fool the limb into thinking it's safe there. When cutting Dichotomous branching leave the lower one for the same reason. 1% chance at best.
 

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garywood

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Technically it wouldn't be a hybrid but a chimera. With trees that bud only at internodes, like maples, there is "almost" no chance that will happen. I've probably grafted thousands of maples and I've never seen it happen but that's just me ;-)
 

MrWunderful

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This is the time of year that most Japanese maples start to look a little ratty, especially the tips of the leaves, it really doesn't have much to do with the pH. Could be fungal also. The pH doesn't really matter all that much when you are growning trees in pots of basically small rocks. And accurately measuring it is not really possible unless you have access to lab quality instruments that are calibrated frequently. pH paper, home depot meters, and pool water kits are not very accurate. Save the vinegar for your salad and add a little pine bark or sphagnum moss to your soil.

I have discussed this whole thing with multiple local bonsai professionals (and one not local) and it works for them so I am going to still proceed with it. I dont buy the whole “you need a professionally calibrated equipment to be accurate” I had fish tanks for years that worked great with ph drops.

I am not trying to get scientifically precise with this. Just lower the ph of hard water, the easiest way
 

MrWunderful

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I found these to be difficult because I never went to college and HS was a blur. I would still recommend that you start here. Top to bottom, left to right would be helpful. FYI there is nothing simple about Soil Science Simplified. If your feeling froggy after that read Dirr and Heuser.
I appreciate your response, but have zero interest in reading about chemistry or soil science.

My only goal is to lower the PH of my water. Thats it. My trees are healthy, I just want them to be as healthy as possible.
 
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