Making Black Pine Needles Smaller?

[LegitPygmy]

I've always wanted to start a pine bonsai. Either black, white, or red pine to be specific. This shouldn't be a problem, but every time I go to my local nursery they have small black pine saplings that look fine, but their needles are HUGE! Their needles are sometimes upwards of 4 inches. I have no experience with pines, but I know that you can shrink the needles to make a better bonsai. The only problem is...I have no idea how to shrink the needles. Help. Please. Thanks!

 

[october]

This is not something that can just be explained in a post. Reducing the size of needles on Japanese black pines ana take years.. not just 2-3 years either. You need to understand how pines work before you can do this. Pines are a very long process. Also, in regards to the pines at your local nursery. Almost all are not good for bonsai. However, if there was one, it would probably take about 5-10 years to get the tree to start looking like a nice bonsai.

Not trying to discourage you. Just giving you an honest answer. If you are new to bosnai, you should start from the begining. Learn the 5 styles of bonsai, then practice just keeping one tree alive. The 5 styles of bonsai are the aesthetic principles that bonsai is built on.

Rob

 

[Dav4]

I agree with everything Rob said, but would like to add that needle reduction is implemented only after the material has reached a particular level of refinement. Practicing needle reducing techniques on undeveloped material will only weaken them and stall any forward progress in development. Good luck.

 

[Poink88]

Check this thread...

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10189-Pine-training-(Ryan-Neil-Lecture)

As Dav4 mentioned...leaf reduction is only done once the tree reached the mature size (trunk and primary branches). Otherwise, it may be counter productive. Good luck!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

LP, yes, pine needles can be reduced in length; better with black and red than white. More importantly, look for straight needles, avoid trees with those that twist...they won't straighten over time.

Needle length is reduced by increasing the quantity of needles. As others stated, the "how" is documented in quite a few places.

Quick example on a black pine I'm growing out in the ground. The sacrifice branches are sparcer and faster-growing, with long needles. The final branches are denser, slower-growing, and have needles about 1/4 the length.

 

[Poink88]

Brian is being very modest. He has one of the best write ups on how to achieve this. Check his blog through his signature and look for the pdf tutorial on it.

 

[Poink88]

BTW, on this thread http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...pert-with-grown-proof-on-Japanese-Black-Pines , I asked about tutorials in developing JBP from seedlings. You might find the info from the replies useful.

 

[subnet_rx]

Also, in regards to the pines at your local nursery. Almost all are not good for bonsai.

Are you saying this from a nebari/trunk thickness kind of perspective, or from a needle-length perspective? I have one in the ground that I'm hoping to dig up one day, but it does have long needles. I know there are varieties of JBP that have shorter needles, I have one of those too, but I often wondered if even on a standard JBP, you looked for one with a naturally shorter needle than most have.

 

[Adair M]

I'm pretty sure that October was referring to trunk/nebari/branches when referring to the usual nursery stock that was not grown for bonsai. They are usually arrow straight, with huge whorles that have reverse taper at the nodes.

It's easy to reduce the length of the needles, once you start the annual de-candling cycle.

 

[cmeg1]

I see you are on the east coast mid atlantic,you would probably enjoy the 'Pines' book from Stonelantern.com.You could grow from seed and have a nice shohin Japanese Black Pine in 6-7 years as the technique is documented in the book with growing them in colanders.I thought you may like it cause' it is tailored to the mid-atlantic growing region and that helped me alot and opened up the techniques of letting leaders grow wild to thicken the trunk while preserving/training (possibly final) branches down low.Japanese Black Pine with this method of course.

 

[october]

Are you saying this from a nebari/trunk thickness kind of perspective, or from a needle-length perspective? I have one in the ground that I'm hoping to dig up one day, but it does have long needles. I know there are varieties of JBP that have shorter needles, I have one of those too, but I often wondered if even on a standard JBP, you looked for one with a naturally shorter needle than most have.

Quote Adair M
I'm pretty sure that October was referring to trunk/nebari/branches when referring to the usual nursery stock that was not grown for bonsai. They are usually arrow straight, with huge whorles that have reverse taper at the nodes. Quote

Hi subnet. Adair answered what I was talking about. It is not just one thing, but many things. The combination of straight trunks, no low branching, bar branching, bulges in the trunk, secondary branches eminating from the same areas all over the tree, very long needles, reverse taper..lol.. The list goes on and on.

Rob

 

[subnet_rx]

Quote Adair M
I'm pretty sure that October was referring to trunk/nebari/branches when referring to the usual nursery stock that was not grown for bonsai. They are usually arrow straight, with huge whorles that have reverse taper at the nodes. Quote

Hi subnet. Adair answered what I was talking about. it is not just one thing, but many things. The combination of straight trunks, no low branching, bar branching, bulges in the trunk, secondary branches eminating from the same areas all over the tree, very long needles, reverse taper..lol.. The list goes on and on.

Rob

Ahh ok, thanks. The major problems this tree has is a set of whorled branches and long needles. Has decent movement and low branching. I mainly got it just to observe their habits and observe the effects of fertilization and pruning. Having said that, it is taking up space in my limited grow bed, so I was hoping it would have some potential to one day go into a pot.

 

[Adair M]

Black pines produce whorles of branches. Prune off the ones you don't want.

Reducing needle size is easy. It takes a couple years, but its no mystery. Search this forum for decandling techniques. Decandling increases ramification, shortens internodes, and shortens needles.

Brian Van Fleet's excellent PDF illustrates how it's done.

 

[ferrangel]

white Pine

i have been Reading all your posts...
and i well... i am new to the fórum and to the bonsái since i had some in the past but i didnot get seriuos.

i have a White pine that i want to make a bonsái from...
its a pinus ayacahuitle or mexican White pine.
here it is...



well i know its gonna take years to make a bonsái out of a pine...
but i need to start.

what do you suggest???

here is my newbie post... i also have 2 oaks... quercus potosina... i really need help in order to see how to develop those.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10763-New-to-Bonsai-and-with-2-Oaks-and-a-White-Pine

 

[MrFancyPlants]

That looks like some difficult material. On the plus side it looks healthy enough. It is difficult to tell from the photo, but the swelling at the base could be a design feature, or it could be ugly and unrecoverable.
Getting a local pine is a great place to start, although deciduous material is generally more forgiving. If I had this sitting on my bench, the first thing I would address would be the roots and soil. This is also the hardest part for beginners, but it is better then putting a lot of thought and time into the top off the tree only to have the design not work with the base, or even worse have the tree die on you due to poor soil or watering conditions. Once you have the roots under control, I could either see the top becoming a literati or else bringing a graft down low to start an informal upright, but that would be years off.
It is a fun adventure, but maybe a good idea to go back to where you found this one and pick out a couple more to play with. Pay the most attention to the base and look for what you see in life size trees: nice even taper and radial roots spread would be ideal. Also, some lower down branches make the design easier without having to mess with the grafting.