mame scotts pine development help

Fred1991

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Hi everyone!

Two year ago i grow a bunch of scotts pine seedlings from seed, and at the end of last year i put some movement on them. Attached is two of them for example

IMG_1976.jpegIMG_1980.jpeg

I'm wanting to develop these seedling as small mame sized bunjin style trees. However i'm a little unsure how to do it, so hoping someone has some light to shed.
This is what i'm aiming for (i know they are black pines)

60816e0fb753cd7b202ea2adbeb4525e.jpeg


Am I right in 1) picking out the strongest bud of the clusters leaving two weaker buds.
IMG_1979.jpeg

then 2) let these buds extend during spring and pinch them back according to their strength.

and then 3) in late summer prune back the years growth to 2-3 needles to promote back budding and create rammification, or do i pluck the needles?

And as an additional question what happens if i cut the branches that has bun clusters on down to 2-3 needles? Is that too late as it's last year growth? or will is it possible to push buds out on these branches as they still have needles on? So cutting approx by the red line below

IMG_1976.jpeg



I hope some of you can help me in achieving my goal :)

Thank you!
 
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Wires_Guy_wires

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And as an additional question what happens if i cut the branches that has bun clusters on down to 2-3 needles? Is that too late as it's last year growth?
It is too late but if you're up for risky shots then you could give it a go. If they survive they'll bud from the cut site around july.

Rest of your plans sound good, but I found that removing the strongest bud can be difficult if it's a central one; sometimes the bud next to it comes right off too, so I try to remove the weakest instead and control the new shoot length by pinching.
 

sorce

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Apologies, but I can't get over the redundant use of "seedlings" in that opener.

In the spirit of redundancy......

I feel like our approach to single flush pines is backwards and a year late. To akin, or derived from JBP still, if you will.
With JBP you are pruning in the year for growth that will come that same year AND remain part of the design.

You see how this leads to this redundancy of moves "chasing" that same pattern, that same pattern that will never exist.

This makes for too much energy removal, and inappropriate allocation.

With single flush pines, you want to keep the tip energy through spring, remove it during summer to induce backbuds(below the red), those buds grow the following year and aren't cut back to for design use until the following year.

So in fact, it is about 2.5 to 3 seasons longer to accomplish what we accomplish with JBP in one season.
Which is why I believe we are also one year early and wasting energy on JBP, but I digress.

To eliminate your need to cut to that red....

All you have to do is allow that center fatty to grow, then remove it in summer, this pattern will eventually make buds at the needle spots.

Utilizing these much smaller needle buds, as opposed to the much larger 2 you are attempting to leave at the tip I argue is the better (smaller, tighter nodes) growth to use for any trees final design.

Especially Mame! Especially literati Mame!

The problem with removing the center bud......
One, the remaining 2 buds aren't kept for design anyway.
Two, if done too early, or if the tree simply decides, it will enlarge those remaining buds to be the "new trunk space grabbing" size anyway, and....we weren't using them in a final design anyway.
So that energy removal becomes an absolute waste, if not detriment.

By removing this growth in small stages, we are lessening the shock of summer removal, which lessens possibility for backbud.

When we keep chasing a reaction that requires energy with no built up energy, we end up with lanky trees with growth only at the tips.

Don't cut For backbuds.
Grow for backbuds.

Cut TO backbuds.

Sorce
 

MaciekA

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I would shoot reduce (down to 2) later in the year as opposed to removing buds prior to flush.

If you reduce buds before they've pushed, the tree is still pushing the same amount of stored (from autumn) energy into the remaining buds. If you're trying for shortened internodes and restricted growth, you'd want that energy to be divided between a larger number of shoots during the foliar part of the season.

The nice thing about the keep-shoots-till-later approach is that you can benefit from the energy returned from the "excess" shoots during the growing season, and this will include feeding the interior of their branch energy and potentially triggering interior growth (back budding, whether at the base of needles or out of straight wood). This is more likely to happen if you've wired branches down (so that the vigorous tips / sources of auxin are physically placed lower than the majority of the branch) and have exposed interior regions to sunlight (so make sure to avoid self-shading in your design). If you do wire branches down, make sure that the end tip of the branch is still pointed towards the sky.
 

Fred1991

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Thanks so much to both of you for you reply's. I'm gonna try follow your advices. As i'm trying to keep the trunk thin i wonder when you reckon the best time to put in a smaller container is? Is it after the main branches have been set or is sooner better?
 

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If you do not pinch strong new growth (ie cut the candles in half, not cut them completely), you will end up with long internodes that will not get back buds and negate what you are trying to do.

If you cut those branches to your lines now, you will kill the branches.
Scotts are single flush, they will not put out more growth this year. No new growth = probably dead branch.

You need to select to 2 buds because otherwise it is too strong. Fall is the best time to do this but you can try using a pair of very fine tweezers to remove one now but it is risky as stated.

If you leave all 3 now, you risk that tip being so strong that the growth is too long. You need to watch them and cut the shoot in half at the right time to reduce strength and slow them down. Keeping all 3 will not slow the growth, it will fuel it and make it stronger. Yes you can carefully cut ONE off once they start to extend with a pair of fine scissors

You NEVER completely cut all the new growth off a single flush pine. Let me emphasize, NEVER do this. Do it and you'll very likely kill the branch.

It is a little late now to pull/thin needles because you risk damaging/knocking off the buds. Do needle thinning from September - February, before the new buds start to swell for the new season. You can try to carefully cut some of the needles now to thin them if you think you have to, but be very very careful and use some very narrow scissors, do not pull them as you normally can in the fall.

You are still developing them so dont put them into a smaller container until you have those branches.
 
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0soyoung

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You NEVER completely cut all the new growth off a single flush pine. Let me emphasize, NEVER do this. Do it and you'll very likely kill the branch.
It is a common thing to do with mugos, for example, because mugos will retain needles for 3 to 5 years.
 

Paradox

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It is a common thing to do with mugos, for example, because mugos will retain needles for 3 to 5 years.

I know there are a few people that do completely cut candles on mugos sometimes.
I dont do it with mine and prefer to treat scotts and mugos the same and generally follow what Ryan Neil recommends for scots with them
 
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Potawatomi13

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I would shoot reduce (down to 2) later in the year as opposed to removing buds prior to flush.

If you reduce buds before they've pushed, the tree is still pushing the same amount of stored (from autumn) energy into the remaining buds. If you're trying for shortened internodes and restricted growth, you'd want that energy to be divided between a larger number of shoots during the foliar part of the season.

The nice thing about the keep-shoots-till-later approach is that you can benefit from the energy returned from the "excess" shoots during the growing season, and this will include feeding the interior of their branch energy and potentially triggering interior growth (back budding, whether at the base of needles or out of straight wood). This is more likely to happen if you've wired branches down (so that the vigorous tips / sources of auxin are physically placed lower than the majority of the branch) and have exposed interior regions to sunlight (so make sure to avoid self-shading in your design). If you do wire branches down, make sure that the end tip of the branch is still pointed towards the sky.
So many different "opinions" here. Most refreshing to see you have listened to the Master and offer actual good advice😌.
 

Fred1991

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Well interestingly I posted this a while back and hadn’t actually seen the replies before now however I had already pinched the shoots. In the beginning of the year I took out the strongest bud leaving the weaker ones. And about a week ago I pinched the strongest shoots back and I’m now allowing the weaker ones to pick up and I’m planing to pinch those when they reach the same size as the ones I’ve already pinched. However after doing so I watched Peter warren talk about Scots pine where he says that in the raw material stage to let the bud extend and taking of the whole years growth of to get adventitious buds. And in the refinement stage pinching the bud to divert and balance the energy. So next year that’s what I’ll be doing!

@MaciekA

would you try and explain your approach in a more practical way as I’m a bit daft and didn’t quite understand exactly what you where saying sorry😅
 
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