MAME: Seedling or cutting?

[jmobonsai]

Hi,

I want to ask: What is best way to start a small mame-sized bonsai (10cm)? Seedling or cutting?

I feel the cuttings are best suited, because you get growth almost from the base of the trunk.
Seedlings are a little different, because they need to have enough vigor to survive a cutback.
Aren't the seedlings too fragile to be cut to small size, or what is your thoughts on this matter?

I have one year seedlings, should i cut or keep them as "shohin-motherplants" and take cuttings from them and then turn them into mame? I would def feel more comfortable with that, then to risk my little fellas wellbeing.

I've posted a similar thread a few days back, with photos of the seedlings.

Here's a link:

Ficus seedlings ready for trunk chop yet?

Hi, I'm new to bonsai. Will 1-year ficus seedlings survive a trunk chop? Planted 5 different species of ficus from seed last year, 12 of the sprouted seeds have survived, some died from newbie mistakes, 5 is from Microcarpa cuttings. They're now about 10-15cm tall, slender, and no branches yet...

www.bonsainut.com

Thanks.

 

[jmobonsai]

I needed to find out... ive sacrifices one of my trees, thats it. Its done, the cut... Now i hold my breath and hope new buds will form

 

[0soyoung]

Both of the above and don't forget air layers too - possibly you think them the same as a cutting.

The fastest route to a thick trunk is to let it get big and cut it down to a low, if no the lowest, node and regrow. I've got a 1-inch tall horse chestnut in a one inch pot and it has been there for 3 years so far. I found it as a volunteer and grew it in a 1-gallon pot the first year. Then the nut came off, I trimmed it and plugged it into a 2 inch pot for a year. Then to the 1 incher and cutting back to the lowest visible buds.

I also have lots of fun with other species that I've found as volunteers in my yard, planting the volunteers in small pots, for the most part. These thicken slowly and remain thin and sinuous (thanks to wiring and pruning). The option is always available to 'pot them up' to thicken a structure you like and then move back to small.

I've also air layered stuff and rooting cuttings. Cuttings are like volunteer seedlings. Layered stuff is another way to start thick and work backwards.

The fun is in finding out what you can do. One-inch tall horse chestnuts, one to two inch tall Norway maples, two inch tall Himilayan birch, all with scaled down leaves - who knew?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

There is not single answer to your question. Seedling or cutting? It is very species specific. Many species DO NOT root from cuttings, obviously these will need to come from seed.

About size, it is important to remember that majority of bonsai, particularly shohin and mame sizes spend the first 5 to 10 years of their lives in training often 10 to 20 times the size that they will eventually be reduced to. Your 10 cm ficus bonsai will likely have to be allowed to grow to over a meter tall at some point, in order to develop the diameter to the trunk needed to make a believable 10 cm tall tree. The larger the trunk diameter relative to height the older the tree will look.

So it really doesn't matter whether you start from seed or start from cuttings. You will allow your trees to get quite large, before you bring it back to the final size.

 

[Shibui]

Much depends on the species. Also how and what sort of cuttings you make.

The thread title is general but I guess that the thrust is specifically about ficus and that makes a big difference.
The ficus I grow here is F. rubiginosa. Seedlings develop a swollen trunk base right from the start so they are natural for short, fat trunk shohin and mame sized bonsai. Cuttings don't do that right off so you need to spend time developing the flared trunk base.
Seedlings typically only have roots below the swollen part of the trunk initially but after a couple of years will develop laterals at ground level so just plant with the widest part at the surface and prune off deeper roots after some laterals emerge. Ficus also root really easy so it is possible to make cuttings by chopping through the widest part to get shallow laterals where you want them. Ground layering is also effective if you don't have confidence.

I can grow small bonsai from ficus cuttings but get a much better looking trunk sooner from Ficus seedlings

Not sure whether other species exhibit the swollen base. Anyone have experience with any other Ficus from seed?

 

[Pitoon]

Both of the above and don't forget air layers too - possibly you think them the same as a cutting.

The fastest route to a thick trunk is to let it get big and cut it down to a low, if no the lowest, node and regrow. I've got a 1-inch tall horse chestnut in a one inch pot and it has been there for 3 years so far. I found it as a volunteer and grew it in a 1-gallon pot the first year. Then the nut came off, I trimmed it and plugged it into a 2 inch pot for a year. Then to the 1 incher and cutting back to the lowest visible buds.

I also have lots of fun with other species that I've found as volunteers in my yard, planting the volunteers in small pots, for the most part. These thicken slowly and remain thin and sinuous (thanks to wiring and pruning). The option is always available to 'pot them up' to thicken a structure you like and then move back to small.

I've also air layered stuff and rooting cuttings. Cuttings are like volunteer seedlings. Layered stuff is another way to start thick and work backwards.

The fun is in finding out what you can do. One-inch tall horse chestnuts, one to two inch tall Norway maples, two inch tall Himilayan birch, all with scaled down leaves - who knew?

Can you post a pic of the horse chestnut?

 

[0soyoung]

Can you post a pic of the horse chestnut?

There is this one, this one, this one, and this one that I have posted on BNut over the past few years.

btw, my one-inch is really about 1.25 (for both the id of that little pink pot and the height of the leafless tree) - reverse exaggeration?

 

[Pitoon]

B

There is this one, this one, this one, and this one that I have posted on BNut over the past few years.

btw, my one-inch is really about 1.25 (for both the id of that little pink pot and the height of the leafless tree) - reverse exaggeration?

How often do you have to water it? I have a virginia creeper that may be ready to downsize into a smaller pot.

 

[0soyoung]

B


How often do you have to water it? I have a virginia creeper that may be ready to downsize into a smaller pot.

Once a day.

My 'secret' is that it sits on a tray of damp Turface fines, I've used play sand, gravel, but I most like to use ProLeague or the mall stuff that I sift out of my MVP.

 

[jmobonsai]

Thanks for all the insights guys!

UPDATE: new green buds are forming on the experimental tree! It is after all, entirely possible to cutback a one year old seedling!

During my first year in bonsai, i have realized how rigid the perception that people have of what you can and cannot do in bonsai, is. No matter where you go for advice, the same things are being repeated almost as mantras. "no you cannot do this, because of said mantra" etc. I think i have learned the lesson of listening to myself, and try things out on my own. See what works. Maybe that's something you guys have also learned in your journey in bonsai?

 

[Underdog]

. I think i have learned the lesson of listening to myself, and try things out on my own. See what works. Maybe that's something you guys have also learned in your journey in bonsai?

I tend to do things "my way". I most often find they were right in the end as I am only 5yrs in. I do listen to all the advice and appreciate peoples time taken to give it and try to sift it out to a size that works for me. There are a few here I take their input as gospel now that I've learned for myself they were right after all.

 

[Shibui]

During my first year in bonsai, i have realized how rigid the perception that people have of what you can and cannot do in bonsai, is. No matter where you go for advice, the same things are being repeated almost as mantras. "no you cannot do this, because of said mantra" etc. I think i have learned the lesson of listening to myself, and try things out on my own. See what works. Maybe that's something you guys have also learned in your journey in bonsai?

I discovered similar. Fortunately (or unfortunately?) I started playing with bonsai when I had very little contact with other 'experts' so I have been forced to experiment with methods and practices. By the time I was told I could not do certain things I had already found out It was possible to do them.
many of the loudest proponents seem to just be regurgitation 'what my teacher said' without questioning the validity of said rules or advice.
By all means listen to experienced advice but also be prepared to try outside the accepted parameters.

 

[It's Kev]

@Shibui will recognise this little guy from yesterday,

but anyways, I’m fairly partial to both ends. But as for seedlings, maybe try them in a bigger pot to grow semi freely the first while, and then start reducing it back down again the following season

P.S.Groot is literally the only container the could grab in a hurry, most of the country is still on lockdown and whatever I buy online can only arrive after a week.

 

[Carol 83]

most of the country is still on lockdown

Pretty scary, stay safe and healthy!

 

[jmobonsai]

@kevinlovett86 That is more or less what i did with all my seedlings.

1) Germinated the seeds and let grow 2-3 sets of leaves.
2) Transplanted them into bigger plastic containers.
3) Looked after them for 9 months, watered them when needed, misted them daily, being careful about dramatic temp changes etc. No ferts.
4) And now they're strong enough to survive in their final container and can even endure cutbacks, as ive just discovered. So year def wait a year or so before cutting anything.

Nice container. What species are the seedling?

Off-topic:
Sorry to hear about your situation in China, it looks pretty bad. We have 3 infected here in Denmark (but all got it from foreign countries), so no person-to-person infections taking place. But they expect more incidents. Although, i got pretty paranoid last months and bought food for at least a month, so im covered. Now i dont go out unless i absolutely have to, getting milk, thats the only thing with an expiration date i just can't live without. For my oatmeal. Just cant stand it with water! I would rather be infected than to eat oatmeal with water. So i guess i can relate to your situation in a way. Just need to pass some time and hope for better times. I just bury emerse myself in bonsai. Currently watching ALL of nigel saunders videos on YT, one by one. Do you know how many he has? Like 531 or so. And most of them are over 20-30 minutes. im at number 93. So not even close. I learn alot from him, and they get me to relax and think about other things. He's a bonsai wizard, even wild animals like to hang with him doing operations and what not. Pretty funny!

Be well! I hope it will mutate into something less lethal or less infectious.

 

[It's Kev]

@jmobonsai its a cherry