Maple Branching Structure - Where to Cut?

[jasonpg]

A couple years ago, I obtained a big Amur Maple stump and haven't given it much attention. I've only hedge pruned it, and now the branching sucks, so it's time to fix it and properly work the branches.

I've attached a photo of what some of the branches look like. The main branch will be long, and there will be a pair of handlebar branches. At end of the branch, whorls have developed with many branches and thickening has occurred.

What would be the proper way to move forward? How do we avoid handle bar branching on a tree that grows with an opposite leaf pattern?

Could someone point me to a resource please? I'm coming up empty. Thanks.

 

[Adair M]

How about a for real photograph of that main branch?

And whole tree?

 

[Adair M]

While I’m waiting for photos, I’ll add this:

That whole Walter Pall hedge trimming method is crap!

Ok, now that’s behind us, there are some good maple development threads on here, started by @markyscott. One us called “Ebihara Maples”, and is devoted to Me Ebihara’s techniques to creating great maple bonsai. Some other good threads: one called “an unusual Trident”, and I think another us called “a field grown Trident”. All by @markyscott.

Those threads should give you lots of good info!

 

[jasonpg]

How about a for real photograph of that main branch?

And whole tree?

Sure thing.

 

[markyscott]

A couple years ago, I obtained a big Amur Maple stump and haven't given it much attention. I've only hedge pruned it, and now the branching sucks, so it's time to fix it and properly work the branches.

I've attached a photo of what some of the branches look like. The main branch will be long, and there will be a pair of handlebar branches. At end of the branch, whorls have developed with many branches and thickening has occurred.

What would be the proper way to move forward? How do we avoid handle bar branching on a tree that grows with an opposite leaf pattern?

Could someone point me to a resource please? I'm coming up empty. Thanks.

In the early spring, cut back hard. You’re going to have to rebuild all of the branches. If you have a couple of hundred trees, hedging might be a fine approach. I prefer to keep a smaller number of trees so I can give each of them the attention they need. I still have to dang many.

Right now the branches you have are stick straight with no taper - there’s nothing there to build from. With deciduous trees, you build branches from the inside out. You can’t wire movement into hardwood branches this big. So if it were my tree, I’d cut back and start over. If a branch has a node close to the trunk, it might be usable - cut back to that. If you can’t see a node, stub the branch back to within an inch of the trunk. It’ll either die back and throw another bud or you might find there is a bud in there. If you have a branch junction close to the trunk (within about an inch or so), ti might be usable. Cut back to the node just past the branch junction and thin to two shoots per branch junction.

Then - in the spring, allow the shoots to extend. Do not hedge. Watch for the branches to harden off. When they do, wire the tree. Remove the older interior leaves on the growing shoot and keep the young leaves out near the end close to the growing tip. Wire the whole shoot, giving it movement. It’s very important to establish the angle the shoot leaves the trunk at this stage. Once its thick and lignified, it becomes extremely hard ot adjust - we’re talking about hardwood trees, after all. After you do this, the tree will throw a bunch more shoots. Keep the interior shoots - those are critically important. After the next phase of growth hardens off, you can cut back to strong shoots that have started to extend. When you cut back to interior shoots, the process starts again. Wire those new shoots into place, remove old leaves, keep the leaves out near the growing tip. Etc...

All of this is discussed in a lot of detail in the threads that Adair mentioned. I’ll post some examples of branch structure that can be developed with this method.

Scott

 

[Adair M]

Ok, good photos.

Maples tend to grow out a central strong leader, and two opposite side branches. And if they are growing rapidly, the internode between the sets of side branches will get long. Which is bad. Usually, each spring, there will be a very short first internode.

Remember that.

The other thing we want with Maples (and any deciduous trees) is taper in the branches. If we just let the branches go, they’ll get thick, but they’ll get thick uniformly. So to create taper, the way to do it is to let’s the buds pop in the spring, grow out a bit, to maybe 6 or 8 pairs long, wire with aluminum, putting in nice twists and turns, them let it grow another month or 6 weeks until you notice the wire beginning to cut in. Remove the wire. The branch will forever hold those good curves forever! Except we’re going to cut 90% off!!!

Cut back hard to either the fist internode, or maybe the second if it’s short. And do it again. Grow out, wire, grow, cut back. As many times each summer as you can. What you are doing is building branches, slowly, with taper.

Now, go read &MarkyScotts threads!

 

[markyscott]

Some examples.

 

[Adair M]

In the early spring, cut back hard. You’re going to have to rebuild all of the branches. If you have a couple of hundred trees, hedging might be a fine approach. I prefer to keep a smaller number of trees so I can give each of them the attention they need. I still have to dang many.

Right now the branches you have are stick straight with no taper - there’s nothing there to build from. With deciduous trees, you build branches from the inside out. You can’t wire movement into hardwood branches this big. So if it were my tree, I’d cut back and start over. If a branch has a node close to the trunk, it might be usable - cut back to that. If you can’t see a node, stub the branch back to within an inch of the trunk. It’ll either die back and throw another bud or you might find there is a bud in there. If you have a branch junction close to the trunk (within about an inch or so), ti might be usable. Cut back to the node just past the branch junction and thin to two shoots per branch junction.

Then - in the spring, allow the shoots to extend. Do not hedge. Watch for the branches to harden off. When they do, wire the tree. Remove the older interior leaves on the growing shoot and keep the young leaves out near the end close to the growing tip. Wire the whole shoot, giving it movement. It’s very important to establish the angle the shoot leaves the trunk at this stage. Once its thick and lignified, it becomes extremely hard ot adjust - we’re talking about hardwood trees, after all. After you do this, the tree will throw a bunch more shoots. Keep the interior shoots - those are critically important. After the next phase of growth hardens off, you can cut back to strong shoots that have started to extend. When you cut back to interior shoots, the process starts again. Wire those new shoots into place, remove old leaves, keep the leaves out near the growing tip. Etc...

All of this is discussed in a lot of detail in the threads that Adair mentioned. I’ll post some examples of branch structure that can be developed with this method.

Scott

Scott, I agree, tridents are too much work! That’s why I have Pines! The thing is, all my pines need needle pulling, decandling, etc all at the same time! I have too many pines!

It’s a cruel world! I think I’ll go have a Shiner and think about it...

 

[markyscott]

Scott, I agree, tridents are too much work! That’s why I have Pines! The thing is, all my pines need needle pulling, decandling, etc all at the same time! I have too many pines!

It’s a cruel world! I think I’ll go have a Shiner and think about it...

Ahh, but it’s all a labor of love. And there are so many shiners to drink.

S

 

[jasonpg]

Great stuff.

So if I were to summarize:

Early Spring:

• cut back and start over
  • if branch has a node close to the trunk, cut back to that
  • if no node near trunk, stub the branch back to within an inch of the trunk
  • if branch junction within 1-2" of trunk, cut back just past junction and leave only 2 shoots per junction

In Spring:

• allow shoots to extend
• When shoots begin to harden off, wire
• remove older interior leaves, keep young leaves near tip
• tree will throw more shoots, keep interior shoots to cut back to later
• after next phase of growth hardens, cut back to strong shoots and wire

What did I miss?

 

[Adair M]

Great stuff.

So if I were to summarize:

Early Spring:

• cut back and start over
  • if branch has a node close to the trunk, cut back to that
  • if no node near trunk, stub the branch back to within an inch of the trunk
  • if branch junction within 1-2" of trunk, cut back just past junction and leave only 2 shoots per junction

In Spring:

• allow shoots to extend
• When shoots begin to harden off, wire
• remove older interior leaves, keep young leaves near tip
• tree will throw more shoots, keep interior shoots to cut back to later
• after next phase of growth hardens, cut back to strong shoots and wire

What did I miss?

After the second grow out, and wire begins to cut in, remove wire and cut back. Cut back to an up/down pair of buds. When they start to grow, keep the “up” bud, remove the “bud”. When it’s grown out to 6 or 8 pair of leaves, wire it back down. And side to side. Don’t let there be any absolutely straight sections. You don’t want wild curves, just nice and soft ones. However, as the tree thickens, the curves will “straighten out”. So, let there be curves.

Oh, over time, cutting back to the upper bud and wiring it down will make your branches look like the top image below.



As your eye passed from the left to the right, the branch seems to undulate in a series of little mountains.

The bottom image shows what would happen if you constantly took the downward bid. It makes a series of valleys.

If you go out and look at hardwood trees while they are still bare, you see they make more mountains than valley structures. The reason for this is the up bud is dominant. It grows up and out. It gets the sun. And shades the down bud. As the up bud branch gets longer, the leaves get heavy, and it bends down under the weight of the leaves. This also tends to shade the down branch even more. After a couple years, the tree sluffs off the down branch. And keeps the up branch. Why does it even make “down” buds? Just in case something happens to the up branch, it has a substitute!

So, you will see that “real trees” have both mountains and valleys! But more mountains.

Oh... Maples alternate with up/down pairs and side by side pairs. When cutting back, try to use up/down pairs whenever possible.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

After the second grow out, and wire begins to cut in, remove wire and cut back. Cut back to an up/down pair of buds. When they start to grow, keep the “up” bud, remove the “bud”. When it’s grown out to 6 or 8 pair of leaves, wire it back down. And side to side. Don’t let there be any absolutely straight sections. You don’t want wild curves, just nice and soft ones. However, as the tree thickens, the curves will “straighten out”. So, let there be curves.

Oh, over time, cutting back to the upper bud and wiring it down will make your branches look like the top image below.

View attachment 180291

As your eye passed from the left to the right, the branch seems to undulate in a series of little mountains.

The bottom image shows what would happen if you constantly took the downward bid. It makes a series of valleys.

If you go out and look at hardwood trees while they are still bare, you see they make more mountains than valley structures. The reason for this is the up bud is dominant. It grows up and out. It gets the sun. And shades the down bud. As the up bud branch gets longer, the leaves get heavy, and it bends down under the weight of the leaves. This also tends to shade the down branch even more. After a couple years, the tree sluffs off the down branch. And keeps the up branch. Why does it even make “down” buds? Just in case something happens to the up branch, it has a substitute!

So, you will see that “real trees” have both mountains and valleys! But more mountains.

Oh... Maples alternate with up/down pairs and side by side pairs. When cutting back, try to use up/down pairs whenever possible.

Hi Adair M,
This thread is pure GOLD, and thank you very much for you explanations.
Also thank you to @markyscott for his efforts at explaining the procedures.

I realise that there are other threads but maybe this thread just hit my buttons ( in a good way lol).
Any chance this kind of write-up could be put permanently in the resources section. This and Adair M’s excellent write-up of how to create ‘broom style’ broad leaves.
GOLD !!!!
Charles

 

[Paulpash]

I agree - three quality threads on building deciduous trees. Definitely worthy of a summary in the resources section for sure.

 

[Underdog]

Good stuff! Thanks.
I've been trying to cut to side buds and choose the direction from there by using one or both. I'm new and learning and not many trees in the refinement stage yet.
I would think this will apply to other trees as well? I have a small Norway spruce that is becoming an overwhelming maze with so many buds/branches.

 

[JoeR]

Can we use one of my tridents as an example real quick?

I have these two old low branches here in good spots, but they simply have no taper and don’t have buds or branches until several inches away from the trunk. What do I do in this instance? There are three brackets indicating problem areas in the picture.

 

[ConorDash]

Can we use one of my tridents as an example real quick?

I have these two old low branches here in good spots, but they simply have no taper and don’t have buds or branches until several inches away from the trunk. What do I do in this instance? There are three brackets indicating problem areas in the picture.

That’s a very lovely little tree. Not perfect, I’m sure but the kind I’d love to have. It’s cute, in a good way.

Perhaps do something to induce back budding, to create the opportunities you need?
Some cutting back but not too hard, will induct back bidding in elms. I don’t know if the same can be said for Maples but I would think so..

A couple years ago, I obtained a big Amur Maple stump and haven't given it much attention. I've only hedge pruned it, and now the branching sucks, so it's time to fix it and properly work the branches.

I've attached a photo of what some of the branches look like. The main branch will be long, and there will be a pair of handlebar branches. At end of the branch, whorls have developed with many branches and thickening has occurred.

What would be the proper way to move forward? How do we avoid handle bar branching on a tree that grows with an opposite leaf pattern?

Could someone point me to a resource please? I'm coming up empty. Thanks.

Dude, you’ve no idea how lucky you are in this thread, having got the attention of 2 great bonsai guys.
If you stick around and go back through threads and stuff, you’ll see these guys’ names pop up frequently and hopefully start to realise how lucky you are

 

[Adair M]

Can we use one of my tridents as an example real quick?

I have these two old low branches here in good spots, but they simply have no taper and don’t have buds or branches until several inches away from the trunk. What do I do in this instance? There are three brackets indicating problem areas in the picture.

Unfortunately you won’t get any bud back in those areas unless you cut back to them. Tridents do have dormant buds, and they will pop, but they won’t do it unless forced to do so.

Good news is the cut back won’t remove too many years work!

 

[sorce]

That whole Walter Pall hedge trimming method is crap

Until you read all the way down to this part.

"From the beginning of October to the next March, the crown can be cut again. During its dormancy the tree will not be encouraged to bud out again. When the leaves are off, one can finally see what was produced over the summer. The entire crown has become much denser, and there is much that needs work. Many branch stumps are created that must be removed now. The same with dead branches or parts of branches. But there are so many shoots that one can chose with which to work - the others can be removed completely. Sometimes you even have the problem of having too many branches to chose from. Most of the little branches will be cut back to one bud (opposite budding trees like maples) or two buds (alternate budding trees like hornbeams). In some areas where the crown needs developing less is removed. As a result of this work the tree will look quite beautiful. At this point, you can also recognize which branches should be changed in their position. They can the be wired the traditional way, or moved with the help of guy wires."

@jasonpg the absolute truth is....

Both Boon and Walter create good trees and are dedicated to their craft.

You have started with WP * method...
So switching to an entirely different schools method NOW, may not be the best way forward.

For no reason other than switching strategies mid stride is not usually efficient in any endeavor. *

You have some time to research this.

From simple observation, it seems Walter does 2 mindless cuts and one detailed one.
The only difference I see...
Walter's method leaves us needing to make larger cuts to clean up what knuckles we created.
This is why the above paragraph can not be omitted from the method.
Walter's ENTIRE * method also heals those cuts enough to continue building beautiful branching. Which may be why switching now could be detrimental. *

Not to smash....both make good trees...

But a couple more TRUTHS....

A search for Boon Maples to post at the same quality as Walters, to prove both methods work, was unsuccessful for me, though I know they exist.
+1 WP

I have never seen anyone come here inspired by a Boon tree, either in the form of using it as an avatar pic, or using the picture in a first post. People use WP trees all the time.
+1 WP

I love that Boon teaches, and teaches students to teach, clearly he has minions!
Paying Minions.
Walter doesn't use minions, or sell DVD's, people like me love his trees and his ability to teach us a simpler method and freely share the information.
Outreach is the Same, Global, WP more recognizable.
+1 WP

You have never heard....
(Provided you read all the way thru Walter's ENTIRE ENTIRE method before dismissing it as crap)
Walter saying...

Scott, I agree, tridents are too much work!

But Boon Students agree....

Walter's Method is easier!

#fulltruthonlyplease

Resorce

Sorce

 

[It's Kev]

Definitely bookmarking this thread.

 

[markyscott]

I will say nothing, other than if you like the results, keep doing what you’re doing. I personally believe that if you treat your tree like a hedge, you’re very likely to get a hedge as a result. That’s where this tree is headed. Not a problem - I like a good hedge row as much as the next guy. But if this were mine, I’d cut all the branches either off or back to the first node without hesitation and start over. You’ll never get good movement in a lignified branch thicker than a matchstick.

I’d strongly encourage those who are interested in developing broadleaf hardwood trees to purchase Bill Valavanis’ book “Classical Bonsai Art”. Although I don’t think he uses the word “hedge” anywhere in it, he does document the development of a couple of dozen fantastic broadleaf bonsai through over 30 years of photographs. He takes the most modest of nursery stock and demonstrates over and over how to build really great bonsai with fantastic branch structure. He covers drastic cutback, wound healing and developing nebari and branch structure in lots of detail. It’s the best book on developing broadleaf hardwood bonsai I have found. You’ll probably find the techniques he discusses familiar. One of the first case studies is “Trident Maple Bonsai #33” taking a field grown 10 year old trident maple from Tennessee into a really spectacular tree. When was he wiring during development? July. Why? In order to get movement in the branches before they are lignified.

Scott