Maple Branching Structure - Where to Cut?

[ConorDash]

Makes perfect sense to me. I chopped back to a new leader so wasn't to worried about that on the spring chop. The winter chop was chopped hoping for a new leader. Was caught up between chopping it in winter or spring, so I just couldn't resist. Now Im glad I chopped the first one in winter. Thank you.

Good info! Thanks . Here’s a random question, you are in zone 8, as am I. But I’m in UK and you, US. Are our 2 zone 8’s, still the same? (Obviously slight variations 8a 8b etc but for the most part).

As trees like maples break dormancy, they bring into play almost all of their stored energy to power new foliage growth and distribute it to the buds most likely to strengthen the tree by growing well, ie., the buds at the ends of branches and higher up in the canopy. When you chopped your tree mid winter, there was still a fair amount of stored carbs in the trunk and roots that could be utilized by dormant buds near the chop site. By chopping the second tree after buds have pushed and also repotting at the same time, there was little energy in reserve to help push dormant buds into active growth. I've personally cut back large branches on my trees, knowing there were dormant buds present closer to the trunk, after the buds have pushed, only to lose the entire branch as no new buds popped. Your best plan now is to seal the chop if you haven't already, fertilize well and hope a bud or two breaks before the trunk dies back from the chop.

So essentially the sap and energy are all flowing and being pushed out to the buds at the moment, resulting in them opening.
Quite literally, if branches are cut now, that energy will be wasted, correct?

Sounds like you are a good source of info on maples! I didn’t know @Dav4 . Thanks for your advice.

 

[ConorDash]

Best in late fall. No bleeding and maple gets time to set buds ready to burst. Late winter is still ok but I would expect less backbudding bit depends on what you need or want. I would wait until late spring (mid June) after everything is hardened. I don't expect big problems on other timing but it is less optimal. Do it less optimal and you lose quickly a year of growth. Always better to wait.

Exactly the opinion I have seen from most and am following. I don’t know why I didn’t do it in winter, when I knew it was a good time for it, it’s too late now.
I think I may cut a few off a few branches just as an experiment, see how much they bleed, how they look when it comes time to prune the others in late spring, summer. Can’t hurt, right.

So now I wait! But I will work on elms and olive between now and then. I think I gotta find some more trees to buy, get my hobbyist blood pumping more,

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Cutting back a part / branch will show if there will be loss of sap. After the frost last nights i've cut a branch (fitting in the car to go to workshop) and after 15 minutes it was dripping, an hour later it dried up. Can be totally different a few days before or after. Cutting a part or some branches will never have the same effect as pruning the whole tree.

 

[ConorDash]

Cutting back a part / branch will show if there will be loss of sap. After the frost last nights i've cut a branch (fitting in the car to go to workshop) and after 15 minutes it was dripping, an hour later it dried up. Can be totally different a few days before or after. Cutting a part or some branches will never have the same effect as pruning the whole tree.

That’s true, yes, probably no use of that experiment then.
If there is sap loss, is it really a big deal? I read Osoyoung giving his opinion on this, essentially he says no. Who cares, lol. No big deal. But given your reply it’s would seem the sap loss or energy loss, would be bad..

 

[Dav4]

That’s true, yes, probably no use of that experiment then.
If there is sap loss, is it really a big deal? I read Osoyoung giving his opinion on this, essentially he says no. Who cares, lol. No big deal. But given your reply it’s would seem the sap loss or energy loss, would be bad..

Don't worry about sap loss. In fact, I'd only worry if the wound didn't produce sap if the cut was made any time after mid winter.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Not a big deal, but it's not optimal and that's what we strive for.

 

[ConorDash]

Don't worry about sap loss. In fact, I'd only worry if the wound didn't produce sap if the cut was made any time after mid winter.

Not a big deal, but it's not optimal and that's what we strive for.

Fair enough, good to know, thanks guys. Hopefully I didn’t steal the thread too much @jasonpg , still on topic and hopefully good info for you and me

 

[Eric Group]

No longer .

Sure, to go back on topic. I have been heavily debating when to prune my japanace maple, green Acer Palmatum, no cultivar. I think I have missed the time during dormancy and now next best is to wait till mid summer when things have hardened off. Today it’s first leaves are just coming out.
I have hard pruning work to do on it, quite major and everywhere I read, this I see not the time to do that work. So I think I’ve decided now to wait.
If anyone would like to tell me I’m right or wrong, please do! I’m gonna go prune some elms... kinda bummed I missed the timing for my maple but I have only myself to blame.

The question of when to prune them is complicated. I have had bad luck recently with fungal attacks when pruning duringndormancy. You will read not to prune during this time of year due to heave sap flow/ “bleeding” though personally I have not had bad issues with trees that were pruned in Spring. I think the callousing tends to be thicker/ heavier when pruned in Spring but that also means they start healing faster and that is a good thing....

For heavy pruning, late Spring or early summer is probably a good time.

Now refinement pruning is another story...

Like I said it resembles my personal life= “complicated”

 

[sorce]

Like I said it resembles my personal life= “complicated”

Good God Amen to that!

I appreciate this fungal attack thought.

Makes me think of the human cold and how it helps us stay well, with output.

A healthy tree is "bleeding" not because it is hurt, but because when the spores land on it, they get washed away.

Cam we not just think of it as rapid transpiration and simply water more?

Oh yea...Eric doesn't have a watering problem! Keep em wet!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Good God Amen to that!

I appreciate this fungal attack thought.

Makes me think of the human cold and how it helps us stay well, with output.

A healthy tree is "bleeding" not because it is hurt, but because when the spores land on it, they get washed away.

Cam we not just think of it as rapid transpiration and simply water more?

Oh yea...Eric doesn't have a watering problem! Keep em wet!

Sorce

“Complicated” = “it depends”

LOL!!!

 

[rodeolthr]

Good info! Thanks . Here’s a random question, you are in zone 8, as am I. But I’m in UK and you, US. Are our 2 zone 8’s, still the same? (Obviously slight variations 8a 8b etc but for the most part).

Conor,
I am in zone 8 as well, but on the West coast of the US (near Osoyoung) in Washington state. I would imagine my zone 8 and your zone 8 are far more similar than the zone 8s expressed in the American south, fwiw.

 

[ConorDash]

Just weird, not sure how it works..
cheers for reply anyway

 

[Trenthany]

After the second grow out, and wire begins to cut in, remove wire and cut back. Cut back to an up/down pair of buds. When they start to grow, keep the “up” bud, remove the “bud”. When it’s grown out to 6 or 8 pair of leaves, wire it back down. And side to side. Don’t let there be any absolutely straight sections. You don’t want wild curves, just nice and soft ones. However, as the tree thickens, the curves will “straighten out”. So, let there be curves.

Oh, over time, cutting back to the upper bud and wiring it down will make your branches look like the top image below.

View attachment 180291

As your eye passed from the left to the right, the branch seems to undulate in a series of little mountains.

The bottom image shows what would happen if you constantly took the downward bid. It makes a series of valleys.

If you go out and look at hardwood trees while they are still bare, you see they make more mountains than valley structures. The reason for this is the up bud is dominant. It grows up and out. It gets the sun. And shades the down bud. As the up bud branch gets longer, the leaves get heavy, and it bends down under the weight of the leaves. This also tends to shade the down branch even more. After a couple years, the tree sluffs off the down branch. And keeps the up branch. Why does it even make “down” buds? Just in case something happens to the up branch, it has a substitute!

So, you will see that “real trees” have both mountains and valleys! But more mountains.

Oh... Maples alternate with up/down pairs and side by side pairs. When cutting back, try to use up/down pairs whenever possible.

This is my new tip of the day! These kinds of tips are why I try and browse everything, old posts as well as new. I like this detail! It will add extra movement to my trees in the future!

 

[Adair M]

This is my new tip of the day! These kinds of tips are why I try and browse everything, old posts as well as new. I like this detail! It will add extra movement to my trees in the future!

Please note: In John Naka’s books, he says to do the opposite. Use the down bud. Unfortunately, that’s wrong! In nature, the top bud is usually the one that is stronger, and will shade out the branch emanating from the bottom bud. So, use the top bud.

(John’s background was he was a Japanese gardner. And they would prune to keep the bottom bud so that the tree wouldn’t grow “up”. They didn’t wire garden trees, so it worked... for garden trees. With bonsai, we can wire new shoots and get the movement that nature makes.)

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Please note: In John Naka’s books, he says to do the opposite. Use the down bud. Unfortunately, that’s wrong! In nature, the top bud is usually the one that is stronger, and will shade out the branch emanating from the bottom bud. So, use the top bud.

(John’s background was he was a Japanese gardner. And they would prune to keep the bottom bud so that the tree wouldn’t grow “up”. They didn’t wire garden trees, so it worked... for garden trees. With bonsai, we can wire new shoots and get the movement that nature makes.)

Thinking about this. Since we eliminate one of the buds, I’d we pick the lowest branch. it may give us shorter internodes cause it’s weaker. It won’t be shaded because we remove the upper one. Or I am thinking incorrectly ?

 

[Adair M]

Thinking about this. Since we eliminate one of the buds, I’d we pick the lowest branch. it may give us shorter internodes cause it’s weaker. It won’t be shaded because we remove the upper one. Or I am thinking incorrectly ?

Well, it’s true that it won’t get shaded. But it will start off growing down, then it will turn up to grow towards the sun. So, looking from the side, the branch would look like a U.

See this drawing:



The bottom image shows what a branch would look like if you use the bottom buds. It grows downwards, then turns up. The next year, do it again, it grows down, then turns up. And so on. I call this formation “a series of valleys”.

Now look at the upper image. In this case, the top bud was allowed to grow, and then it was wired down. So, it starts up, then is bent down. The next year, it grows up, and is bent down. This process mimics what actually happens in nature. I call this “a series of mountains”. As the young twig grows, it gets heavier and heavier with leaves. The sheer weight of the leaves causes the twig to not be able to support an upward growing angle, and sag to a more horizontal orientation. The next year, it repeats the process. Meanwhile, the bottom twigs die off.

The key is wiring the young twigs before they lignify. This must be done carefully since they’re fragile. The wire only needs to stay on for 3 or 4 weeks, once lignified, the shape stays.

I encourage everyone to go outside and look at bare deciduous branches now during the winter. You can see how they have developed. You will see both “valleys” and “mountains”. But, I think you’ll see more “mountains” than “valleys”. That’s because the upper bud is stronger, gets the light, and shades out the bottom twig.

About internodes... we control how much we allow the new shoots to extend. So, after we’ve wire the top twig down, let it lignify, then remove the wire, and then... CUT IT BACK!!! To the first set of “up/down” buds! When the new shoots start to grow, remove the bottom shoot. Let it extend, wire it. In a month, remove the wire, and cut it back again! Repeat as many times as you can during the growing season.

That is how the Japanese get those incredible maples!

 

[Forsoothe!]

So, after 2 1/2 years, where is this 'Tater @jasonpg ? (Really, 4 1/2 years after acquisition)

 

[Trenthany]

Well, it’s true that it won’t get shaded. But it will start off growing down, then it will turn up to grow towards the sun. So, looking from the side, the branch would look like a U.

See this drawing:

View attachment 353478

The bottom image shows what a branch would look like if you use the bottom buds. It grows downwards, then turns up. The next year, do it again, it grows down, then turns up. And so on. I call this formation “a series of valleys”.

Now look at the upper image. In this case, the top bud was allowed to grow, and then it was wired down. So, it starts up, then is bent down. The next year, it grows up, and is bent down. This process mimics what actually happens in nature. I call this “a series of mountains”. As the young twig grows, it gets heavier and heavier with leaves. The sheer weight of the leaves causes the twig to not be able to support an upward growing angle, and sag to a more horizontal orientation. The next year, it repeats the process. Meanwhile, the bottom twigs die off.

The key is wiring the young twigs before they lignify. This must be done carefully since they’re fragile. The wire only needs to stay on for 3 or 4 weeks, once lignified, the shape stays.

I encourage everyone to go outside and look at bare deciduous branches now during the winter. You can see how they have developed. You will see both “valleys” and “mountains”. But, I think you’ll see more “mountains” than “valleys”. That’s because the upper bud is stronger, gets the light, and shades out the bottom twig.

About internodes... we control how much we allow the new shoots to extend. So, after we’ve wire the top twig down, let it lignify, then remove the wire, and then... CUT IT BACK!!! To the first set of “up/down” buds! When the new shoots start to grow, remove the bottom shoot. Let it extend, wire it. In a month, remove the wire, and cut it back again! Repeat as many times as you can during the growing season.

That is how the Japanese get those incredible maples!

This and @markyscott ’s posts have me inspired. I just got a handful of maples from some woods noting exceptional but I through them in nursery type soil to let them recover for a couple years then I’ll put them in the ground and see what happens. Hopefully I can make something out of them.

 

[Adair M]

This and @markyscott ’s posts have me inspired. I just got a handful of maples from some woods noting exceptional but I through them in nursery type soil to let them recover for a couple years then I’ll put them in the ground and see what happens. Hopefully I can make something out of them.

Here’s @markyscott in action!



And they said those Capital riot videos were scary...

 

[Trenthany]

Here’s @markyscott in action!

View attachment 353795

And they said those Capital riot videos were scary...

Looks like a serial tree torturer! Lmao I’m undecided on which technique is better walters method works and I love his trees but so do the Japanese and they have beautiful ones too! Just a matter of taste and time.