Maple design help

[D1raq]

Good afternoon community,

Attached below you will find an Acer Palmatum Japanese Princess that I am developing in a pot for the next few years. In the meantime, I would like to make several aesthetic changes that would improve its eye appeal. I would greatly appreciate any insight you would provide.

Sincerely,
Derek

 

[Japonicus]

Good afternoon Derek
Include when you potted this into what potting mix. Some history, how long you've had it
size of pot, how deep is it etc...
Looks like an organic potting mix, that needs more drainage to me?

 

[D1raq]

Good afternoon Derek
Include when you potted this into what potting mix. Some history, how long you've had it
size of pot, how deep is it etc...
Looks like an organic potting mix, that needs more drainage to me?

Just need help with the branch structure

 

[Nanuk]

Just need help with the branch structure

It depends on what you are trying to do with it. It looks to me to be in a grow out pot.

 

[Shibui]

The close nodes indicate that this is probably a dwarf form of AP. Growth will probably be quite slow. Chunky branches with no taper is common with these and you may need to prune branches hard to get some taper to look better.
I have always found it difficult to grow refined branches while fast growing in a grow pot like this. My advice is to grow it OR begin to style the branches and tree shape, not both at once.

Not sure what branch structure advice you are expecting when there's so little to work with.

 

[sorce]

Just need help with the branch structure

Trouble is you don't have several branches to make

several aesthetic changes

with!

I'd start with layering the graft off.

Then cut all the branches back to their first sign of growth.


Sorce

 

[Deleted member 21616]

edit: I need more time to think

 

[BackyardBonsai]

Trouble is you don't have several branches to make

with!

I'd start with layering the graft off.

Then cut all the branches back to their first sign of growth.
View attachment 234085

Sorce

The question is how easily is this cultivar for layering.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

The question is how easily is this cultivar for layering.

yes. best to first air layer the branches, which need to be removed anyways.

@sorce drew an interesting line for the pruning of the center branch. I would air layer that off, both to test airlayering of the tree and for the possibility of a nice start for a new tree.

 

[LanceMac10]

Don't bother cutting anything off, this tree needs all the foliage it can get. 10-15 years should give you something to work on.


....enough with the friggen "air-layer" calls......

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Don't bother cutting anything off, this tree needs all the foliage it can get. 10-15 years should give you something to work on.

....enough with the friggen "air-layer" calls......

LOL

that was my initial post, but i didn't wanna depress the OP who wants the tree to look good now. The obvious advice is nebari>trunk>branches, in that order. But given @D1raq 's interest, i edited it to:

edit: I need more time to think

LOL

i'd definitely let it grow wild, and, depending on the roots, maybe repot in spring and plant it on a angle.

 

[Forsoothe!]

It seems to me that the True Believers would have everybody else believe that all bonsai must to be in the image of the best combination of dimensions, height = 6 x the diameter of the trunk in a pot 3 x the diameter of the trunk, or whatever it is. I don't know what the proper numbers are because I like to have bonsai, not just pine away until my stock reaches somebody else's magic formula. If the OP hasn't already shot himself in the head, I would propose a less negative bit of advice: The tree can be clip & grown and wired into a reasonable small bonsai in five years. Most stock can be managed into a show-able tree in five years. There are those pre-bonsai starters that are a little easier to manage in a shorter time frame as well as some stock which just doesn't lend itself in any time frame, and everything in-between. The OP photo is an in-between starter. Most collected stock has inconvenient wounds that have to be dealt with, the bigger, the more inconvenient, so the more inconvenient, the longer the period of growing-to-cover.

This is a possible design that is nothing more than looking from the other side; rotating the trunk vertically at about 22 degrees; wiring the small branch to be almost in parallel with right hand trunk; brushing the soil away from the base until whatever nebari it has is maximized; and clip and grow small canopies as shown which should be blended as a four hump canopy, or whatever canopy appeals to the clipper as it progresses. The new twigs of the canopy would be wired ~horizontal~ and radiate outboard from each trunk and the lower branch into fans of foliage each autumn, from which new twigs would arise eventually forming a soft rounded top (in four places, so they need to sort of match each other in size and shape).

As the tree progresses, new prospective images/shapes of the canopies will be possible and changes in design direction will be made to please the owner. Every tree does not have to look like a John Naka tree. Holding beginners to strict standards is exactly what drives new people to golf.

 

[D1raq]

It seems to me that the True Believers would have everybody else believe that all bonsai must to be in the image of the best combination of dimensions, height = 6 x the diameter of the trunk in a pot 3 x the diameter of the trunk, or whatever it is. I don't know what the proper numbers are because I like to have bonsai, not just pine away until my stock reaches somebody else's magic formula. If the OP hasn't already shot himself in the head, I would propose a less negative bit of advice: The tree can be clip & grown and wired into a reasonable small bonsai in five years. Most stock can be managed into a show-able tree in five years. There are those pre-bonsai starters that are a little easier to manage in a shorter time frame as well as some stock which just doesn't lend itself in any time frame, and everything in-between. The OP photo is an in-between starter. Most collected stock has inconvenient wounds that have to be dealt with, the bigger, the more inconvenient, so the more inconvenient, the longer the period of growing-to-cover.

This is a possible design that is nothing more than looking from the other side; rotating the trunk vertically at about 22 degrees; wiring the small branch to be almost in parallel with right hand trunk; brushing the soil away from the base until whatever nebari it has is maximized; and clip and grow small canopies as shown which should be blended as a four hump canopy, or whatever canopy appeals to the clipper as it progresses. The new twigs of the canopy would be wired ~horizontal~ and radiate outboard from each trunk and the lower branch into fans of foliage each autumn, from which new twigs would arise eventually forming a soft rounded top (in four places, so they need to sort of match each other in size and shape).
View attachment 234855
As the tree progresses, new prospective images/shapes of the canopies will be possible and changes in design direction will be made to please the owner. Every tree does not have to look like a John Naka tree. Holding beginners to strict standards is exactly what drives new people to golf.

Thank you Forsoothe!, as you provided a substantial and useful post.

I will use this as a point of reference and guide this fall once the leaves drop.

Sincerely,
Derek

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Most stock can be managed into a show-able tree in five years. There are those pre-bonsai starters that are a little easier to manage in a shorter time frame

we must live in very different climates, or attend very different shows

 

[Forsoothe!]

we must live in very different climates, or attend very different shows

When I was new in bonsai, I was told by senior club members to enter trees in the club show as a way of learning more about bonsai. Like all new wannabes, I was skeptical. My trees were just what all wannabe's trees were: crude. They said that you need to subject yourself to the critiques of the judges and just as importantly, learn to do the best you can to prepare for the show. If you don't have a reason to put extra effort in the preparation of your trees, you won't, "go that extra mile".
They didn't say, but I now know, that any idiot can do the first 95% of the work, but the real difference in trees is that last 5%, refinement, ~and in striving for that last 5% you are more critical of your own work, you look for and see more that you can do, and that there is even more that remains to be done to reach higher, and higher for perfection. I you don't enter the club show you'll never get into the proper frame of mind... for the art of bonsai. If you can't stomach the judges' comments, you won't really be open to understanding that there are many ways to consider what is good and what is so-so. Bonsai are never really, "finished", they are always in-process, always at least one step away from perfect. Even as they get nearer perfect, you have to consider what the steps are to avoid allowing them to outgrow a design and descend into a bush-in-a-pot. Learn by doing.

People join bonsai clubs to do bonsai, not just admire the work of senior members, or worship at their feet. If they don't see some action, they disappear. The same people come to websites to DO bonsai, to ask questions and hopefully receive answers that have some immediate utility. The first 10 responses to this OP were without redeeming value because they didn't answer the question asked: "In the meantime, I would like to make several aesthetic changes that would improve its eye appeal." The OP asked if anyone had a nail file and you people suggested everything from hatchets to carpal tunnel surgery.

As the past Chair of a club annual bonsai show for five years and an exhibitor in local and state wide shows for 20 years, I know what levels of trees are acceptable in shows. I have won my share of People's Choice and Excellence Awards so I know what the public thinks are nice trees, too. Bonsai is a great hobby for anyone of any age and I lead a beginner's workshop two times a year and exhibit 20 to 25 trees at an local annual art fair, all for free. To advance the art of bonsai. To give back, because I can, because I am grateful to bonsai for all the pleasure it has given me. Please join me in answering the questions asked.

 

[Smoke]

It seems to me that the True Believers would have everybody else believe that all bonsai must to be in the image of the best combination of dimensions, height = 6 x the diameter of the trunk in a pot 3 x the diameter of the trunk, or whatever it is. I don't know what the proper numbers are because I like to have bonsai, not just pine away until my stock reaches somebody else's magic formula. If the OP hasn't already shot himself in the head, I would propose a less negative bit of advice: The tree can be clip & grown and wired into a reasonable small bonsai in five years. Most stock can be managed into a show-able tree in five years. There are those pre-bonsai starters that are a little easier to manage in a shorter time frame as well as some stock which just doesn't lend itself in any time frame, and everything in-between. The OP photo is an in-between starter. Most collected stock has inconvenient wounds that have to be dealt with, the bigger, the more inconvenient, so the more inconvenient, the longer the period of growing-to-cover.

This is a possible design that is nothing more than looking from the other side; rotating the trunk vertically at about 22 degrees; wiring the small branch to be almost in parallel with right hand trunk; brushing the soil away from the base until whatever nebari it has is maximized; and clip and grow small canopies as shown which should be blended as a four hump canopy, or whatever canopy appeals to the clipper as it progresses. The new twigs of the canopy would be wired ~horizontal~ and radiate outboard from each trunk and the lower branch into fans of foliage each autumn, from which new twigs would arise eventually forming a soft rounded top (in four places, so they need to sort of match each other in size and shape).
View attachment 234855
As the tree progresses, new prospective images/shapes of the canopies will be possible and changes in design direction will be made to please the owner. Every tree does not have to look like a John Naka tree. Holding beginners to strict standards is exactly what drives new people to golf.

I hope you are much better at actually making trees than you are at drawing them. That looks fourth grade at best........WTF. Obviously you don't know anything about maples because they don't bud like an elm, they bud from nodes on the sides of branches. This tree has no branches to speak of. Why is that? First you have to understand the species which is probably a yatsabusa, and never branch reliably. I guarantee it will not bud like the underwater anemone's you have drawn. They don't bud from the tips of cut branches.

I'll be waiting for your smart ass reply.

 

[Smoke]

Also for the record, your post carries no more weight than any other. They are all opinions. Yours is just quick fix, and not conducive to building a good tree. If you feel it is, I can tell you for sure....your wrong. Building a tree on paper is not the way it is done. It is not done in a year either. A good tree is made over many years of decisions, cut backs, proper wire techniques and so much more than I care to type.

The picture of the tree as it is is very two dimensional in the photo and anyone with good eyesight can see that the three main branches are on the same plane. You have not explained any ideas about wiring them over a couple years to add depth or any of the artistic parts of bonsai design. Just cut that bitch and make a small fuckin tree, look how good I did on two dimensional paper. "I call this the Fan"

How bout you post a thread and start with your best tree. Post the best one cause I want to see how you deal with trees and what your background is. The "Soothsayer" in me is hoping for the best!

 

[Potawatomi13]

I hope you are much better at actually making trees than you are at drawing them. That looks fourth grade at best........WTF. Obviously you don't know anything about maples because they don't bud like an elm, they bud from nodes on the sides of branches. This tree has no branches to speak of. Why is that? First you have to understand the species which is probably a yatsabusa, and never branch reliably. I guarantee it will not bud like the underwater anemone's you have drawn. They don't bud from the tips of cut branches.

I'll be waiting for your smart ass reply.

Oh, come on! It's a basic idea and presented well enough! Not all are virtual "artists". Personally cannot do at all.

Foresoothe is correct. Seems some suggest here to do as "classical" cookie cutter design which is not for all to be forced into.

Building a tree on paper is not the way it is done. It is not done in a year either. A good tree is made over many years of decisions, cut backs, proper wire techniques and so much more than I care to type.

Really? What is reason many actual masters make drawing of imagined future tree? In principal current drawing meant as same.

Why be such a jerk?

 

[John P.]

Some people need to settle down.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I hope you are much better at actually making trees than you are at drawing them. That looks fourth grade at best........

@Smoke Your stick figures are better than mine, but you've had more practice. One of the problems instructing new people is the complexity of design. There's too much to memorize at one sitting for a new person. That's even more problematic here on the web: just how long-winded should you be? Remember, KISS? (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I tried to emphasize above the need to answer the question asked by the OP. If the answer overwhelms the OP with more peripheral details than they can digest, is that better than just giving them a simple lesson? I think not. When I lead a workshop, I send a primer via Email weeks before the day so the student can read the details a couple times and be introduced to terms and concepts that they won't really understand until they have hands-on the tree at the workshop with accompanying instructions. The Rules of Bonsai are just the basics, and keeping it down to 6 pages is difficult, but it's in their hands before, during, and after for reference in the future. I like to think it's better than nothing.

Obviously you don't know anything about maples because they don't bud like an elm, they bud from nodes on the sides of branches. This tree has no branches to speak of. Why is that? First you have to understand the species which is probably a yatsabusa, and never branch reliably.

Gee, I'm glad that demon rum encouraged you tell the whole world that Maples don't ramify the same way Elms do. The world thanks you! They grow, we wire, they grow, we wire, eventually they become as appealing as the artist can make them. Every tree species is different, every tree is different. That's the challenge. We do our best.

How bout you post a thread and start with your best tree.

How about you show as many trees as I have shown? Here, post #16, and here post #22, and here post #47, and here post #97. Now, your turn. Show us your potatoes with leaves! I really hate them. I like trees that actually look like trees.