Maple pre bonsai

[maroun.c]

we rarely get any Mapple Here so don't really have the luxury of choice. Picked up these three from 7 that one nursery got. Realise these are far from going into a bonsai pot, I'll be placing in growing pots for coming 2-3 yrs i guess. Appreciate any info on work I need to do in the growing pots (if any) to possibly improve taper or roots even before putting in bonsai pots?
Any idea how often I should fertilize abd is there any preferred fertilizer type?




Also is this Acer palmatum?



Thank u

 

[Shibui]

That is definitely Acer palmatum and a nice red leaf variety too.
Best not to do any root work while they are growing but next winter you should bare root and root prune to develop best surface roots.
Taper is developed by cutting off thicker parts and retaining thinner branches as new trunk but no need to do any of that at this stage. Allow to grow some more. Possible first pruning when you root prune in winter. You will get better growth in larger pots or in the ground. These could be 'slip potted' into larger pots at any time - lift the entire root ball out of the existing pot and transplant to a larger container (or garden) without cutting roots.
Feed with any plant fertiliser. Regular feeding will give results. Every 2-3 weeks with liquid fertiliser and occasional slow release should give good results.

we rarely get any Mapple Here so don't really have the luxury of choice.

There is often a reason for nurseries not stocking certain plants. Your climate is probably not really suited to best growth or health so good luck with trying these JM

 

[substratum]

There is often a reason for nurseries not stocking certain plants. Your climate is probably not really suited to best growth or health so good luck with trying these JM

This is very likely the reason... most maples are not hardy below USDA Zone 8, and Beirut is Zone 11a. Does Australia reference the Asia Hardiness Zones, the USDA Zones, or do you have something unique to your area?

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Choose your favorite and make room in the fridge for a couple of months year.. @Anthony

 

[Anthony]

@Hack Yeah! ,

we lost zonal envy with the Gmelina which has trident maple type
leaves.
But thanks for thinking of me.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Shibui]

most maples are not hardy below USDA Zone 8, and Beirut is Zone 11a. Does Australia reference the Asia Hardiness Zones, the USDA Zones, or do you have something unique to your area?

Any hardiness zones are, at best, only an indication of what might do well or poorly. I have referenced maps which give Aussie ratings also cross-referenced with data to give a USDA equivalent. Maps have my area as 9 or 9A and both tridents and JM do very well here both in the garden and as bonsai.
JM grow quite well in Melbourne which is nominally zone 10. They do reasonably well in Sydney area, also zone 10 and I know some growers persist with them in Brisbane, also nominally zone 10 but actually sub-tropical climate. Brisbane JM do stay alive but never grow to their potential. Tridents do somewhat better but also not as well as further south. Day length may have some influence as well as temperatures and chill hours.

It will be interesting to see how these JM do in Beirut.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

@maroun.c beautiful wall ?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

we rarely get any Mapple Here so don't really have the luxury of choice.

First, I am sure it is just an accident, but I am going to change the title of your thread from "Mapple" to "Maple". I understand the challenge of writing in numerous languages

Second, that is definitely a Japanese maple. One thing to look at with Japanese maple cultivars sold into the nursery trade is that they are usually grafted trees - the root stock is often a generic "Japanese green maple" variety, while the material above the graft is the desirable cultivar. There are two potential problems: (1) the graft union can often be an unsightly knob. No problem if the tree is going into your landscape, but a potentially critical issue if you want to use the tree for bonsai. (2) Be aware of the graft location because sometimes (particularly in the case of trees trained upright with low weeping branches) the graft can be higher than you might imagine. If you want to prune the trunk back hard, be careful that you don't prune away the cultivar - leaving only the rootstock behind.

 

[maroun.c]

That is definitely Acer palmatum and a nice red leaf variety too.
Best not to do any root work while they are growing but next winter you should bare root and root prune to develop best surface roots.
Taper is developed by cutting off thicker parts and retaining thinner branches as new trunk but no need to do any of that at this stage. Allow to grow some more. Possible first pruning when you root prune in winter. You will get better growth in larger pots or in the ground. These could be 'slip potted' into larger pots at any time - lift the entire root ball out of the existing pot and transplant to a larger container (or garden) without cutting roots.
Feed with any plant fertiliser. Regular feeding will give results. Every 2-3 weeks with liquid fertiliser and occasional slow release should give good results.


There is often a reason for nurseries not stocking certain plants. Your climate is probably not really suited to best growth or health so good luck with trying these JM

Thanks for all the info. Indeed Lebanon might be a bit warmer thathe typical countries maples are know to thrive in. Our temperature in the summer is around 28-30 degrees Celsius and we do get a few days at 35-38 even. Winter temperature is typically around 12-15 degrees Celsius with days between storms where temperature goes a bit higher and where we get sunny days. No frost at all where I live but we do get days where temp will go down to around me degrees Celsius especially at night.
I do live around 6-7 Km from Beirut and on a bit higher altitude around 300 meters, which makes it a bit cooler in summer and colder in winter but again still not down to 0 degrees Celsius except for 2-3 days a year if any.
Would you suggest I place the trees in shaded areas in summer time? Is it the hotter summer temperature that might affect them or lack of real cold weather that they need for some reason?

 

[maroun.c]

This is very likely the reason... most maples are not hardy below USDA Zone 8, and Beirut is Zone 11a. Does Australia reference the Asia Hardiness Zones, the USDA Zones, or do you have something unique to your area?

The best classification I could find for lebanon is the 11a one mentioned above,i have checked about this a while back and couldn't find any zoning for lebanon which althgouh a very tiny country has hot areas at coast level with very cold areas in mountains up to 3000 meters high covered with the Cedar trees which live under the snow most of the year....

 

[maroun.c]

Any hardiness zones are, at best, only an indication of what might do well or poorly. I have referenced maps which give Aussie ratings also cross-referenced with data to give a USDA equivalent. Maps have my area as 9 or 9A and both tridents and JM do very well here both in the garden and as bonsai.
JM grow quite well in Melbourne which is nominally zone 10. They do reasonably well in Sydney area, also zone 10 and I know some growers persist with them in Brisbane, also nominally zone 10 but actually sub-tropical climate. Brisbane JM do stay alive but never grow to their potential. Tridents do somewhat better but also not as well as further south. Day length may have some influence as well as temperatures and chill hours.

It will be interesting to see how these JM do in Beirut.

I'm really hoping they'll make it here. guess time will tell.

 

[maroun.c]

@maroun.c beautiful wall ?

Thanks, this is basically stacked rocks, it's honestly a lower cost wall they build.in mountains here, a nicer and a bit more expensive one is a hand cut and build wall which gets nicely stacked in different forms and they also add some nice filling in between the stones, like one I have in the front garden.
Herea a couple shots of the back garden wall and the front one.

And a morning shot of the view over beirut and mediterranean sea

 

[maroun.c]

First, I am sure it is just an accident, but I am going to change the title of your thread from "Mapple" to "Maple". I understand the challenge of writing in numerous languages

Second, that is definitely a Japanese maple. One thing to look at with Japanese maple cultivars sold into the nursery trade is that they are usually grafted trees - the root stock is often a generic "Japanese green maple" variety, while the material above the graft is the desirable cultivar. There are two potential problems: (1) the graft union can often be an unsightly knob. No problem if the tree is going into your landscape, but a potentially critical issue if you want to use the tree for bonsai. (2) Be aware of the graft location because sometimes (particularly in the case of trees trained upright with low weeping branches) the graft can be higher than you might imagine. If you want to prune the trunk back hard, be careful that you don't prune away the cultivar - leaving only the rootstock behind.

Thanks for the correction.
I looked at them and indeed I believe I see a graft in the trunk?


Sorry for the basic question but can I cut the trunk above it maybe after an airlayering?
Anyway to hide it ?

 

[Shibui]

Yes, grafted. The one in the terracotta pot has green leaves growing from below the graft but red leaves above. A sure sign the 2 parts are different.
Sometimes the graft is no problem if the stock and upper have the same bark and similar growth. Sometimes the 2 parts are very different and it stands out very strongly in bark colour or texture or one will grow faster than the other to give a bulge at the graft point.
Many people layer the tree at or just above the graft to get new roots then cut off below the new roots so there is no more graft. Sometimes it might be better to layer higher up if the trunk is not very good. Sometimes it is better to throw the tree away or plant into the garden.

Would you suggest I place the trees in shaded areas in summer time? Is it the hotter summer temperature that might affect them or lack of real cold weather that they need for some reason?

Hotter summer can burn the leaves but 30C is not hot. Even 38C is still not really hot. I get quite a few days above 40C in summer and maples still do well although I do give shade through the hottest months. Some summer shade is probably a good idea for you in summer too.
I think it is the winter cool temps that JM need as well as shorter day length maybe. That's why they don't grow so well in sub tropical Brisbane over here - not enough cool in winter (Brisbane is sub-tropical so doesn't really have winter). I suspect that was what Hack Yeah was referring to earlier with the fridge comment. However I'm not really sure how cold it really needs to be for them to exist or to thrive. Even if they can survive at your place they probably will never grow really healthy but I will be interested to see how you do with them.

 

[AlainK]

Hi Maroun,

The summer temps might not be too much of a problem if you keep them in a mostly shaded place. Dry winds are more of an issue. But winter temperatures seem to be rather too high for such trees to get a period of dormancy, I think that will be the main problem.

Here, red-leaf J. maples like this one are often sold under the name Acer palmatum 'Atropurpureum' (dark red in Latin) and they can grow healthily on their own leaves, so air-layering them could be a good solution if you want to turn them into bonsai.

 

[maroun.c]

Yes, grafted. The one in the terracotta pot has green leaves growing from below the graft but red leaves above. A sure sign the 2 parts are different.
Sometimes the graft is no problem if the stock and upper have the same bark and similar growth. Sometimes the 2 parts are very different and it stands out very strongly in bark colour or texture or one will grow faster than the other to give a bulge at the graft point.
Many people layer the tree at or just above the graft to get new roots then cut off below the new roots so there is no more graft. Sometimes it might be better to layer higher up if the trunk is not very good. Sometimes it is better to throw the tree away or plant into the garden.


Hotter summer can burn the leaves but 30C is not hot. Even 38C is still not really hot. I get quite a few days above 40C in summer and maples still do well although I do give shade through the hottest months. Some summer shade is probably a good idea for you in summer too.
I think it is the winter cool temps that JM need as well as shorter day length maybe. That's why they don't grow so well in sub tropical Brisbane over here - not enough cool in winter (Brisbane is sub-tropical so doesn't really have winter). I suspect that was what Hack Yeah was referring to earlier with the fridge comment. However I'm not really sure how cold it really needs to be for them to exist or to thrive. Even if they can survive at your place they probably will never grow really healthy but I will be interested to see how you do with them.

Thanks for all the info, Will observe thegraft in coming 2-3 years of the end up growing or surviving abd if it's too evident will airlayer before moving to bonsai pot. Our days in winter are shorter than in summer and my garden doesn't get hit by the sun in winter which I believe should help but again only time will tell.
Would losing the leaves be a good sign of dormancy or how can I tell?
Was wondering about that green leave and thought it might start green and turn red after? Anyway should I remove that green leave?

 

[AlainK]

Would losing the leaves be a good sign of dormancy

Yes, if the leaves are not scorched by the sun, in which case it could be a bad sign of a tree dying from drought.

But yes, when deciduous trees get into dormancy, they lose their leaves.

 

[Shibui]

Definitely remove any green leaves that appear. That variety can grow faster than the red one above. If you let it grow too big all the energy will go there and the red part can get weak, even die.
Losing leaves in winter is a sign of dormancy but I'm not sure if that is all that is needed. There is talk about chill hours for some plants. I don't know if it is accurate or how the tree measures chill. The real test is how healthy the tree is next summer and the one after. From what I have heard death is not sudden. Trees just get weaker each year until they can't continue. Fingers crossed that does not happen for you.

 

[maroun.c]

Any idea when is best to airlayer maples? Any difference if I do it in summer or winter? Also is it OK to use coco peat instead of sphagnum moss for air layering or is the grafts are rather low can I just place in a deeper pot and cover with soil (in this case do i still peel the bark) reason for this is it'll be easier to maintain correct humidity vs an plastic bag with moss inside?
Checked with a friend here who has a couple imported maple bonsais and he has them since 4 years. He says they struggle a bit in very hot summers but have been fine so far here. They lose their leaves every winter and get them back beginning of summer as he says which I believe is a sign they go dormant. He says our summer is rather humid which helps against dry wind which was mentioned above.
Thanks

 

[Maloghurst]

If this were mine I would airlayer at the red box and nurture the green branch as the new leader. Even if the airlayer doesn’t take your better off with the green maple on the root stock for bonsai purposes.