Maple Progression Advice

Hawke84

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Hi All,
I managed to get my hands on 4 large maples really low price and wanted to use them as practice pieces. I know what im aiming for and I know the basics but i wanted a bit more advice, im quite happy waiting as long as i know im on the right path.

Below is a couple of the trees I have along with what im aiming for.

Plan
So first steps, clear the front of the tree and build up the health.
Select the leader and allow to grow and thicken
chop down and select a new leader and chop down again, rinse & repeat to get the basic outline and taper.

Im im a little unsure on branch structure. My plan with the branches is to wire down, grow them right out and thicken
Chop the branch back to first internode and grow out again, rinse & repeate to get a nice ziging branch structure
To get branches where there are none on the trunk, try and promote back budding with pinching of tips and pruning.

Do these steps sound like the right plan for the next few years?


What i have
20190623_172047.jpg

20190623_184317.jpg

20190623_184328.jpg


Project Aim
1002 to 1211.jpg
 

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D

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nice tree!

im quite happy waiting as long as i know im on the right path

i share this attitude 👍🏼

that trunk has some nice thickness, but the graft would bother me if this was my tree.

I would personally consider thread grafting single branch from the upper part of the tree onto the trunk *below* the graft, to make a multi trunk tree.

if you want to stick to your inspiration photo, see that first elbow on the trunk when it bends to the right? I would thread graft a new leader onto the trunk (below the current graft line) using a whip from the top of the tree. This will give you a new graft line, which will be located AT the bend/elbow and will make it far less visible.
 

Hawke84

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nice tree!



i share this attitude 👍🏼

that trunk has some nice thickness, but the graft would bother me if this was my tree.

I would personally consider thread grafting single branch from the upper part of the tree onto the trunk *below* the graft, to make a multi trunk tree.

if you want to stick to your inspiration photo, see that first elbow on the trunk when it bends to the right? I would thread graft a new leader onto the trunk (below the current graft line) using a whip from the top of the tree. This will give you a new graft line, which will be located AT the bend/elbow and will make it far less visible.

thanks for the quick reply! I actually have 5 different trees each with different challenges. I've never tired thread grafting but happy to give it a go on the tree in the second photo as there are no lower primary branches on this. are these grafts? i couldnt tell if it was a graft line or just the bark ageing?

does my overall plan sound sensible?

also just for fun, when i found and filled my car with the trees
20190406_165843.jpg

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D

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see the V in the first picture? That’s the graft

grafts aren’t bad in and of themselves, but in bonsai it’s.desirable if they are clean, and minimally visible.

You bought trees grown for landscape, and out of a lack of any concern for bonsai aesthetics these trees were grafted on the vertical, which makes ugly joint and often swells (and/or reverse taper)

a much cleaner way to graft is to fake an internode, like i show in the second picture. This is the method that i am using to create bonsai with cultivars that are difficult to propagate (like beni chidori, taylor’s pink, higasayama) or with cultivars that are simply slow growers. I have not seen this idea done before to be honest (@0soyoung has it been done already?). Thought about it on my own by thinking about trunk design a lot. Doing it this way allows you to grow a grafted bonsai where even the most trained eye will not notice (especially once the trunk is totally white)

what’s good about these landscape trees is that they are usually grafted onto vigorous rootstock, so using it as a base for any other cultivar can be a good idea if done well 👍🏼
 

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Hawke84

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see the V in the first picture? That’s the graft

grafts aren’t bad in and of themselves, but in bonsai it’s.desirable if they are clean, and minimally visible.

You bought trees grown for landscape, and out of a lack of any concern for bonsai aesthetics these trees were grafted on the vertical, which makes ugly joint and often swells (and/or reverse taper)

a much cleaner way to graft is to fake an internode, like i show in the second picture. This is the method that i am using to create bonsai with cultivars that are difficult to propagate (like beni chidori, taylor’s pink, higasayama) or with cultivars that are simply slow growers. I have not seen this idea done before to be honest (@0soyoung has it been done already?). Thought about it on my own by thinking about trunk design a lot. Doing it this way allows you to grow a grafted bonsai where even the most trained eye will not notice (especially once the trunk is totally white)

what’s good about these landscape trees is that they are usually grafted onto vigorous rootstock, so using it as a base for any other cultivar can be a good idea if done well 👍🏼

thank you this helps, i see the graft now and the swelling and potential for inverse taper developing. I hadnt spotted the graft line on the finished tree, that is really smart! would one option be to trunk chop below the graft (although no idea what root stock is these are grafted onto!) I guess the other option would be to tourniquet and push for a lower nebari and ultimately air layer away the original root stock
 

Hawke84

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these are the 5 trees all from the planned front apart from tree 5 which i havent chosen yet as its in the ground to thicken it up

Tree 1
1.jpg

Tree 2
2.jpg

Tree 3 (unhappy)
3.jpg

Tree 4
4.jpg

Tree 5
5.jpg
 

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Hawke84

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so this for a potential plan working around the graft.
Yellow is chop, purple is new branches (thread or back-budded)
1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg
 

0soyoung

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a much cleaner way to graft is to fake an internode, like i show in the second picture. This is the method that i am using to create bonsai with cultivars that are difficult to propagate (like beni chidori, taylor’s pink, higasayama) or with cultivars that are simply slow growers. I have not seen this idea done before to be honest (@0soyoung has it been done already?).
You mean a thread graft? It is common to loop a branch from the plant back around to a point lower on the trunk to 'fake and internode'. It is also common to use a cutting that has been rooted for a couple of years or so to be the thread.

Of course one can also graft another cultivar so that, in effect, one replaces the foliage as is commonly done with junipers and pines. I think thisi s what you are driving at @Derek - am I right?

@thumblessprimate1 did this a few years ago, thread grafting 'Higasayama' onto a generic palmatum trunk. I am sorry, but I cannot find the thread where he presented this. I have a big 'Higasayama' (close to 15 feet tall) in my garden landscape that I've been perpetually frustrated trying to air layer. So, given the inspiration from Martin, I chained an a.p. 'trunk' in an 8-inch bulb pan by threading two 'higi' branches through it in the spring of 2018. I will separate it in a few weeks, leaving me with the need to graft a third branch to be the apical foliage. I will likely try to affect it with a free-scion graft this summer, but given my poor success rate, I will likely be arranging one of the newly grafted branches for a thread/approach graft next year. It would have been so much faster/better to have done all three at once, but it just proved to be far too complicated to place a third thread in my circumstances.
 

thumblessprimate1

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You mean a thread graft? It is common to loop a branch from the plant back around to a point lower on the trunk to 'fake and internode'. It is also common to use a cutting that has been rooted for a couple of years or so to be the thread.

Of course one can also graft another cultivar so that, in effect, one replaces the foliage as is commonly done with junipers and pines. I think thisi s what you are driving at @Derek - am I right?

@thumblessprimate1 did this a few years ago, thread grafting 'Higasayama' onto a generic palmatum trunk. I am sorry, but I cannot find the thread where he presented this. I have a big 'Higasayama' (close to 15 feet tall) in my garden landscape that I've been perpetually frustrated trying to air layer. So, given the inspiration from Martin, I chained an a.p. 'trunk' in an 8-inch bulb pan by threading two 'higi' branches through it in the spring of 2018. I will separate it in a few weeks, leaving me with the need to graft a third branch to be the apical foliage. I will likely try to affect it with a free-scion graft this summer, but given my poor success rate, I will likely be arranging one of the newly grafted branches for a thread/approach graft next year. It would have been so much faster/better to have done all three at once, but it just proved to be far too complicated to place a third thread in my circumstances.
Actually I played with Seiryu, but I failed.20190623_185234.jpgThe maple caught a disease. I've been wanting to try again using another cultivar 'Kentarosan' after seeing a friend construct one so nicely.
 
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0soyoung

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Actually I played with Seiryu, but I failed. Maple caught a disease. I've been wanting to try again using another cultivar 'Kentarosan' after seeing a friend construct one so nicely.
Like the opening of the old TV show, 'Dragnet', the names have been changed to protect the innocent, I guess ;).
Seiryu, really? Not that it matters - an a.p. cultivar.
 
D

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You mean a thread graft? It is common to loop a branch from the plant back around to a point lower on the trunk ... Of course one can also graft another cultivar so that, in effect, one replaces the foliage as is commonly done with junipers and pines

ya! i meant thread graft as a replacement for the common V-graft we see on nursery landscape plants

for example, see attached. Imagine the red was a grafted cultivar, and the green was toot stock. If that kind if thing is done early enough (as it always is by landscape growers) the graft disappears because it is occurring at a “bend” in the trunk. It’s the equivalent of choose a branch as a new leader, but in this case, you’re choose a grafted branch
 

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Hawke84

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So do you guys think my suggestions for branch placement are ok? Some of the grafts are lower which worry me a bit.
I was going to work in the superstructure over the next few years anyway and get the taper but I like to know what I'm aiming for!
 
D

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So do you guys think my suggestions for branch placement are ok?

it is difficult to answer your question. in my opinion, branch placement is, in general, irrelevant at this stage. maples back-bud so vigorously that you will always have the opportunity to choose new shoots for the future branches of your final design. but more specific to the case at hand, all of your branches are currently growing in areas of the trunk that, in my view, should eventually be chopped off anyways.

if these were my trees (and only if I was being forced to do something with them), i'd be focused on nebari and trunk development.

In post #2, 4, and 11 I have given you a very smart way of 1) getting rid of your graft marks and 2) introducing movement lower down on your trunk. See the attached example. the drawing is from peter adams' book, and it demonstrates the technique for trunk development that I would use for this material. my addition is that your first bend should be a thread graft (instead of a branch currently on the tree), and more specifically, that this thread graft should be *below* your current graft lines, so that you can chop them off! i indicated in red in the second photo the highest point where I would place that thread graft, and would definitely try to go lower, depending on what's under the aluminum foil.

To be honest, if i were going to follow through with this approach, I would graft onto my trunks a much more suitable cultivar (there are dozens to choose from: deshojo, katsura are easy to get in the UK, for example). The cultivar you chose will present challenges for bonsai that most would consider a waste of time given the widespread availability of much more suitable cultivars. (Do yourself a favour, and visit Heron's bonsai in person for maples). There is no rush to acquire cultivars or perform grafts - I would first inspect the nebari of these trees thoroughly (at the right time of year) before investing any time or money in grafting.

In sum, in my view the *only* thing worth saving on the trees that you have in your hands right now is the girth of the lowest part of the trunks, and even that is very questionable because of swelling, cavities, and/or wounds, but with carefully placed grafts this can be corrected over time.

this is just my opinion, and others will certainly have other opinions. a good person to speak to about these trees might be @BobbyLane . He is skilled at drawing the best of out trees when i myself often fail to see it, and I often very much like his results!! He is coincidentally also in the UK.

as an aside, I would recommend joining a local club, speaking to others, and subscribing to mirai (or at least watching their free online youtube videos). Their wiring video is currently on youtube for free, and carefully details a technique that is crucial to master. maybe @BobbyLane can help with finding local clubs and/or mentors, i don't know
 

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Hawke84

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it is difficult to answer your question. in my opinion, branch placement is, in general, irrelevant at this stage. maples back-bud so vigorously that you will always have the opportunity to choose new shoots for the future branches of your final design. but more specific to the case at hand, all of your branches are currently growing in areas of the trunk that, in my view, should eventually be chopped off anyways.

if these were my trees (and only if I was being forced to do something with them), i'd be focused on nebari and trunk development.

In post #2, 4, and 11 I have given you a very smart way of 1) getting rid of your graft marks and 2) introducing movement lower down on your trunk. See the attached example. the drawing is from peter adams' book, and it demonstrates the technique for trunk development that I would use for this material. my addition is that your first bend should be a thread graft (instead of a branch currently on the tree), and more specifically, that this thread graft should be *below* your current graft lines, so that you can chop them off! i indicated in red in the second photo the highest point where I would place that thread graft, and would definitely try to go lower, depending on what's under the aluminum foil.

To be honest, if i were going to follow through with this approach, I would graft onto my trunks a much more suitable cultivar (there are dozens to choose from: deshojo, katsura are easy to get in the UK, for example). The cultivar you chose will present challenges for bonsai that most would consider a waste of time given the widespread availability of much more suitable cultivars. (Do yourself a favour, and visit Heron's bonsai in person for maples). There is no rush to acquire cultivars or perform grafts - I would first inspect the nebari of these trees thoroughly (at the right time of year) before investing any time or money in grafting.

In sum, in my view the *only* thing worth saving on the trees that you have in your hands right now is the girth of the lowest part of the trunks, and even that is very questionable because of swelling, cavities, and/or wounds, but with carefully placed grafts this can be corrected over time.

this is just my opinion, and others will certainly have other opinions. a good person to speak to about these trees might be @BobbyLane . He is skilled at drawing the best of out trees when i myself often fail to see it, and I often very much like his results!! He is coincidentally also in the UK.

as an aside, I would recommend joining a local club, speaking to others, and subscribing to mirai (or at least watching their free online youtube videos). Their wiring video is currently on youtube for free, and carefully details a technique that is crucial to master. maybe @BobbyLane can help with finding local clubs and/or mentors, i don't know

thank you for the help and detailed guidance, you have given me loads to think about. Sorry I didnt mean it to sound like I was ignoring your posts, I think the ideas you have suggested make a lot of sense.
For what these trees are they were incredibly cheap. all of them were £50 so im quite happy to practice different things on them and ultimately shrug if they dont survive or end up how i want. I actually hadnt noticed the graft (cant believe I hadnt!) but this is what i'm kicking myself for the most because i know this will present a challenge for this material, but like you say they have good thick trunks so i do have something to work with.

I am actually only an hour from Herons and I've been there quite few times already and I have a trident maple and deshojo in my collection so i couldnt even try small root grafting!

thanks again for the help. I'll update this in a few years with how i get on :)

If anyone else has any tips please feel free!

@BobbyLane PM me if you can help, im in Sussex...
 
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Hawke84

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also just realised, i think i bought my Trident maple from Bobby if its the same person...! small world!
 

BobbyLane

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also just realised, i think i bought my Trident maple from Bobby if its the same person...! small world!

ive sold a few tridents yes, ive no idea which one though, not seen any pics on here.
regarding clubs, i wouldnt really know as never been to one, maybe ask some of the other UK guys on here.
ive never grafted or done much layering tbh.

great resource here and its free

 
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Hawke84

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ive sold a few tridents yes, ive no idea which one though, not seen any pics on here.
regarding clubs, i wouldnt really know as never been to one, maybe ask some of the other UK guys on here.
ive never grafted or done much layering tbh.

great resource here and its free

Thanks, I do like Harry's blog. Do you have any advice what i can do with these trees without grafting etc?
tree i got from you attached :) very happy tree, loving it!
20190511_164939.jpg
 

BobbyLane

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Thanks, I do like Harry's blog. Do you have any advice what i can do with these trees without grafting etc?
tree i got from you attached :) very happy tree, loving it!
View attachment 249000

oh yeh nice trident. so what endeared you to these trees in the first place, what stood out apart from the fact they were a bargain? practice material?
well one of the first things i look for is a good nebari, but i dont see that on these trees. for the style of tree that you want, i dont see much branching low on the trunk. being maples, if you cut them back hard and low they should backbud. then you can fatten up a leader. there is an article on bonsai4me about building trunks and branch structures. sounds like you need to grasp the basics of building trunks and branch structures. then take it from there. when i was a newbie i did all this
 

BobbyLane

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3-jpg.248623


this is more suitable to begin building a broom form. you can find out about the different forms on bonsai4me. i would use the current branches at the top, cut them a little shorter and focus on that. i think cutting it back to make one trunk line will just make a mess of the material.

with that said. chopping low isnt a guarantee it will bud back. there needs to be rings/nodes on the bark where a maple will back bud from. i think thats why it was suggested you graft.
 
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BobbyLane

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im not being funny, but i dont see anything in this worthwhile pursuing
108de5f9-7ff4-40ed-a325-d42084ce5c5f-jpeg.248603


its extremely difficult material. going from your trident to these is a big step backwards
 
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