Maple Soil Survey - Organics or Not?

[leatherback]

It depends on the type of akadama...

And climate
and type of winter care

My plants stay outside. In rain, all winter. When it gets cold, everything is soaked, freezes for a few hours and gets rained upon again. Do that 15-30 times a winter and the stuff falls apart.

Add to that that fact that it is shipped from halfway around the world

Add to that that I in fact do not believe it has such important magical properties.. After all, it would be a gigantic coincidence that growing bonsai was developed exactly in the only place on earth where the only suitable substrate is mined.

But, the last time someone convinced someone else on internet was 100 years ago. I know what gowth I get. I know the roots I get. AND I know what yellow mud looks like. So take my posts as a word of forewarning. Many use it with great results. Many grow great bonsai without ever using it. Some have had trees dying because of the temporary structures. By all means, try it. Test it. But do it on material that is not near and dear.

Sergio (Mach5) uses straight akadama with a splash of kiryu, David Cotizas from Spain uses 70% akadama and 30% kiryu, and Ryan Neil uses straight akadama for everything

And Walter Pall does not use it, nor does Harry Harrington. Not sure what the point is.

In the end, it is nto important. It is important to use a substrate that drains well, aerates well and add fertilizer & water at intervas suitable to the species, care and location. All else is margin-work, in my view.

 

[Arlithrien]

And climate
and type of winter care

My plants stay outside. In rain, all winter. When it gets cold, everything is soaked, freezes for a few hours and gets rained upon again. Do that 15-30 times a winter and the stuff falls apart.

Add to that that fact that it is shipped from halfway around the world

Add to that that I in fact do not believe it has such important magical properties.. After all, it would be a gigantic coincidence that growing bonsai was developed exactly in the only place on earth where the only suitable substrate is mined.

But, the last time someone convinced someone else on internet was 100 years ago. I know what gowth I get. I know the roots I get. AND I know what yellow mud looks like. So take my posts as a word of forewarning. Many use it with great results. Many grow great bonsai without ever using it. Some have had trees dying because of the temporary structures. By all means, try it. Test it. But do it on material that is not near and dear.


And Walter Pall does not use it, nor does Harry Harrington. Not sure what the point is.

In the end, it is nto important. It is important to use a substrate that drains well, aerates well and add fertilizer & water at intervas suitable to the species, care and location. All else is margin-work, in my view.

This post is giving me serious dejavu, I swear I've read this verbatim at least a year ago.

I also remember reading an anecdotal post from someone in Japan saying they (the Japanese) use Akadama, not necessarily because it has magical bonsai properties, but because it is what they have available in garden centers in Japan for potted plants in general. It's akin to the peat + perlite mix that is mainstream in the US although it might be deemed insulting to compare the two. That said, Akadama is clearly an excellent aggregate, if not by coincidence then by Japan's attention to detail, particularly in horticulture. I also think it's entirely possible that some people have romanticized Akadama just like many romanticize Bonsai as an exotic artform and just like so many aspects of Japanese and greater asian culture are romanticized in the West.

 

[leatherback]

This post is giving me serious dejavu, I swear I've read this verbatim at least a year ago.

probably more than once, as I can get slightly annoyed when it comes to the whole soil discussion. Some seem to think that akadama is key to everything. And that everybody who points out some of the less optimal characteristics needs to be corrected. Especially if then "names need to be named"..

 

[Ohmy222]

Of course you can have bonsai without akadama. Bonsai has been around longer than using akadama has. I am not even certain straight pumice (which works) isn't better. Main thing in my opinion is a roundish, aggregate particle produces the best mass of fine feeder roots and best nebari in my opinion. Turface, DE, and pine bark I have seen for bonsai use generally are more flat then round and results in a lack of fine roots or dead pockets that give you a flawed nebari. If nebari is not important then it doesn't matter much. When I put a landscape tree in the ground I am not using pumice and akadama. In Georgia, we have super hard clay and trees grow fine in it. The trees also have 2-3 roots that may run feet from the tree with minimal feeders. Not good for nebari and not good for collecting. My best guess is that you would get the best nebari with no soil at all. Just some constant mister of nutrients straight to the roots. Not practical of course.

 

[leatherback]

Turface, DE, and pine bark I have seen for bonsai use generally are more flat then round and results in a lack of fine roots or dead pockets that give you a flawed nebari.

Yes, horrible indeed..

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You can grow a maple, or any tree for that matter, in just about anything, if you understand how to water that specific substrate, and how to fertilize that specific substrate.

That said, some things are better (meaning easier to use) than others.

Pumice is one such material. Excellent addition to all media mixes, and sometimes good as a single component growing media.

Akadama is the "common dirt" of Japan. It is nearly everywhere you stick a shovel in the ground. It happens to be a pretty good "dirt", but it is not a "magical media". It is a clay or silt that is derived from erosion of volcanic lavas, which makes it quite different than clays in eastern North America where our clays are derived from limestone. Akadama is a low calcium clay. Makes it good for trees that like mildly acidic soils. Most of the bonsai raising areas in Japan are low elevation and rarely freeze solid in winter, unlike the freeze thaw cycling that our friend from Germany experiences.

My self, my trees tend to only have a few freeze thaw cycles in winter, stuff once it freezes tends to stay frozen, so Akadama will last a little be longer. Although lately as my winters get more mild, I am experiencing more freeze thaw cycling.

A pot that is 100% pumice that is fertilized only with organic cake type fertilizer will within a few months have a significant amount of organics mixed down into the media from the breakdown of cake fertilizer.

Even if you used a 100% mineral substrate, like pumice & crushed quartzite, if you use liquid seaweed, humic acids, fish emulsion, or other liquid organics, you will have a "biofilm" build up around your pumice particles, the film will be the liquids plus microbes. In time this accumulation of organics will be significant.

So the distinction between "organic mixes" and "inorganic mixes" is somewhat blurry, as few inorganic mixes really stay inorganic.

Mixes that are heavy with organics, like bark & peat mixes, one needs to be very careful to avoid overwatering. The beauty of inorganic mixes is you can water everyday and even if you are watering a mix that is still wet, porosity is open enough that there is no harm.

Organic mixes, when watered while still wet can become waterlogged and loose porosity, depriving roots of oxygen, killing roots.

So there is no "bright line" or "clear answer" to this question. Just learn how to water the mix you choose to use.

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

Given all the conflicting advice, my conclusion is that so long as I pay attention to aeration, drainage and water retention the soil will be fine (maybe not ideal, but tree will not spontaneously combust unless put in potting soil). Amount of water and fertilizer will be dictated by the soil choices.

I need to purchase a good deal of soil for spring repotting and was looking at Bonsai Jack as the price seemed right. Other recommendations for 20+ gallons would be appreciated. I would likely use bonsai block, pumice and pine bark.

I also called around some local-ish bonsai places and they aren't so open about what's in their mixes. They seem to be witch's brews containing many ingredients. Also, they are sold as a one size fits all - same soil for different trees and that just didnt seem right to this beginner.

Only 4 years of data to glean from, but I have had most deciduous in bonsai jack soil and have seen positive root development and health during this time, including Japanese maples.

no experiments with Akadama yet, but compared to my deciduous in pure organic soil, bonsai jack has a clear advantage so far for what it’s worth.

have been wary of akadama due to many, many freeze/thaw cycles here in Michigan.

still planning to try out Forsoothe’s dark matter soil as an experiment - I won’t tag him here to escalate the soil battle!

 

[hinmo24t]

Only 4 years of data to glean from, but I have had most deciduous in bonsai jack soil and have seen positive root development and health during this time, including Japanese maples.

no experiments with Akadama yet, but compared to my deciduous in pure organic soil, bonsai jack has a clear advantage so far for what it’s worth.

have been wary of akadama due to many, many freeze/thaw cycles here in Michigan.

still planning to try out Forsoothe’s dark matter soil as an experiment - I won’t tag him here to escalate the soil battle!

He hasn't been on here in a while?

 

[Wulfskaar]

I'm about to repot my Shishigashira into inorganic soil, but think I'll be adding some fir bark to the mix.

My thinking is that I live somewhere where we likely won't get any more rain until Nov/Dec and it just seems like I should have more water retention.

My second thought on this is that I will be able to use a bit less of my expensive soil by replacing a percentage with the fir bark.

Am I being dumb?

 

[penumbra]

I'm about to repot my Shishigashira into inorganic soil, but think I'll be adding some fir bark to the mix.

My thinking is that I live somewhere where we likely won't get any more rain until Nov/Dec and it just seems like I should have more water retention.

My second thought on this is that I will be able to use a bit less of my expensive soil by replacing a percentage with the fir bark.

Am I being dumb?

Not at all. Pine bark is a part of nearly everything I plant. So much the better in your climate. And fir bark holds up better than pine bark.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
Can someone please explain to me how Akadama is Inorganic? So it’s a clay substance, and the last time I looked at clay, it looked very organic!!
And to make this discussion even weirder, inorganic substances like Pumice, Lava, river sand don’t break down, but Akadama does. Confused lots, or is Akadama baked to 1000deg by Mother Earth?
Charles

 

[Lorax7]

Hi,
Can someone please explain to me how Akadama is Inorganic? So it’s a clay substance, and the last time I looked at clay, it looked very organic!!
And to make this discussion even weirder, inorganic substances like Pumice, Lava, river sand don’t break down, but Akadama does. Confused lots, or is Akadama baked to 1000deg by Mother Earth?
Charles

Organic, in this context, means composed of material that was once alive. Another way of thinking about that is, to be organic, the soil mix must contain more than just the trace amounts of carbon that would be present from contamination (I,e, the carbon-containing material has to have been placed in the mix intentionally).

Clay is primarily composed of Aluminum oxides, silicates, Magnesium oxides, and other products of rocks that have been broken down by long-term exposure to the weather. Akadama, in particular, is derived from volcanic rock that has been decomposed by weather. It’s not organic.

 

[leatherback]

inorganic substances like Pumice, Lava, river sand don’t break down,

In fact, they do. Maybe not as fast that you notice it straight away, but I see lava and pumic crack over winter. Slowly, it all decays to particles small enough to basically be dust.

[thats next to the explanation of organic vss inorganics, which was already given)

 

[Lorax7]

In fact, they do. Maybe not as fast that you notice it straight away, but I see lava and pumic crack over winter. Slowly, it all decays to particles small enough to basically be dust.

[thats next to the explanation of organic vss inorganics, which was already given)

Agreed. Akadama would not exist if lava/pumice didn't eventually break down.

 

[roberthu]

And climate
and type of winter care

My plants stay outside. In rain, all winter. When it gets cold, everything is soaked, freezes for a few hours and gets rained upon again. Do that 15-30 times a winter and the stuff falls apart.

Add to that that fact that it is shipped from halfway around the world

Add to that that I in fact do not believe it has such important magical properties.. After all, it would be a gigantic coincidence that growing bonsai was developed exactly in the only place on earth where the only suitable substrate is mined.

But, the last time someone convinced someone else on internet was 100 years ago. I know what gowth I get. I know the roots I get. AND I know what yellow mud looks like. So take my posts as a word of forewarning. Many use it with great results. Many grow great bonsai without ever using it. Some have had trees dying because of the temporary structures. By all means, try it. Test it. But do it on material that is not near and dear.


And Walter Pall does not use it, nor does Harry Harrington. Not sure what the point is.

In the end, it is nto important. It is important to use a substrate that drains well, aerates well and add fertilizer & water at intervas suitable to the species, care and location. All else is margin-work, in my view.

I agree. Akadama is popular in Japan mostly because it’s the best for the money locally. It is always easier to copy someone else’ success than trying to figure out a new way to do things. It’s good that people are willing to spend the money to use something has been proven and learn a proven way of growing bonsai. But akadama should not be considered the only best media for growing trees in pots. I have used just about all the media there are in the 11 years I have been toying with this hobby and with the exception of peat, I have to say they are all in the same ball park. Turface in a colander developed identical root mass as APL mix for my JBPs in 2 years. Now I am using Bonsai Jack’s premix because I don’t have time to sift and mix anymore with the priorities shifting in my life. I still have almost a pellet of akadama in my garage doing nothing. I am pretty happy with the new mix so far so I don’t think I will open those bags soon. Maybe one day I want a new look and will start sifting and mixing my own soil again…