Matrix for growing up Japanese Maples in pots

caerolle

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Hi, I am trying to grow out several very small Japanese Maples, and need to do this in pots instead of in the ground. I would think using something less precious than bonsai soil for these would be ok for this purpose, and of course using bonsai soil would be quite expensive for the size containers I am going to need (up to 5 -10 gallons each) and the number of them. Even if this is not the ideal, I am willing to trade off some growth rate (and definitely root ramification) for cost. Plus, it seems a shame to use precious materials just to grow them up...

I have spent a lot of time searching and agonizing over what to use. If someone gave me some little trees last year to grow in pots, I would have put them in good potting mix and moved on all ignorant and happy, but now I am worried about killing my trees. I have spent a lot of time researching materials, and a lot of time finding out that my area has essentially nothing I want to use. No pine fines, no pumice or lava rock the right size. I can get perlite, maybe even something in the range of the right size from a hydroponics place, but not keen on using that, partly because I dispose of used potting materials in my small yard, and worry about having little white beads everywhere (I live in a condo).

I did find some coarse material (link below) to which I added some 3/8 - 1/2" pine chips (sifted from ReptiBarkfrom Petco), small perlite (~), and ~1/2" lava rock (something left over from me smashing larger stuff, cannot buy anything smaller than 3/4" here). It drains sorta well, but that isn't something I can really make again. I also sifted some of the planting mix to 1/10" - 1/2" to get rid of the fines and the large chunks, and that seems to drain even better.


My primary concern with using the sifted material is the nitrogen level (and to some degree the pH). This is 100% organic, so I worry about that. I added blood meal to the pots with the mix I described above, but really don't have any idea of how much is needed. I tried to err on the side of not burning up my plants, but that may be far too little with all that organic material.

I have half thought of just getting some good potting soil and making sure I don't get carried away on the water, or adding some perlite. I would love to add pumice or lava rock, but again, bulk pumice is unknown here, as is lava rock smaller than 3/4".

I know this is a fraught topic, sorry, so Mods feel free to delete! Otherwise I appreciate any suggestions people might have.

Thanks! :)
 

NOZZLE HEAD

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It is pretty common in the nursery trade in Oregon to grow out maples in 100% Douglas fir bark. It doesn’t decompose enough to cause problems over the 3 years or less that the trees are in the pots at the nursery.

They use fairly high amounts of a coated complete slow release type fertilizer “ozmocote” mixed into the bark and topdressed yearly, to supply needed nutrients.
 

leatherback

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I would start off growing them in small pots. maybe half gallon sized. That should get you easily to 4ft maples. Do this in good quality potting soil. Then work the roots. PLant them in double sized containers. Substrate.. Anything moisture retentive with loads of open airspaces. Fertilize, water. Redo the rootwork after 2-3 years. Then see where you are at.
 

penumbra

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Pro mix or similair about 65 - 75% and pine fines for the remainder. Pretty standard mix I have used for 40 years.
 

Smoke

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I know this is not what you wish to hear, but making soil suitable for bonsai is not something done on the cheap. It is expensive and shipping can add to the price in a hurry. I can guarantee you in a city as large as the one you live in there will be a head shop or two in town, probably several in that city. Sorry head shop is a place that caters to the growing of marijuana. They will have several growing mediums for yu to use and have most all the makings for a good mix. It's just not cheap. Nothing right now is, steak is 8.00 a pound. If you wish to go cheaper than that Lowes and Home Depot will carry cactus soil in large bags. Cheap and 10% pumice. Pretty good stuff. Throw a bag of aquarium gravel in it and start there. Throw a bag from the head shop in there and add there.

DSC_0001.JPG

Go to the best nursery in your town and ask for this stuff, or see if the will order it for you. 1/2 a cubic foot so about half as large as a bag of potting soil. Orchid bark, seedling size. I pay 6.99 a bag for it. One bag will make a wheelbarrow (2 Cu Ft ) of soil mix. Thats equivalent to two bags of potting soil. That will plant a lot of trees. So put two bags of cactus mix and one bag of orchid bark in the wheelbarrow and you have a mix you can use to grow and to show. Why the need to make two? if it good enough to grow your plants, it's good enough to show your plants.

DSC_0008.JPG
 

Smoke

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@Smoke welcome back to the forum

Thanks that means alot...but I don't see myself staying around. I just am really tired of beginner forums. I wish I could find a place that people posted nothing but bonsai work, and were eager to talk about it in a helpful constructive manner, a place where you had to have a decent tree in an avatar and everyone used their real name so I knew if I was talking to someone I have known for thirty years that wouldn't talk to me like that in real life.

Hope you week is ending well.
 

leatherback

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Thanks that means alot...but I don't see myself staying around. I just am really tired of beginner forums. I wish I could find a place that people posted nothing but bonsai work, and were eager to talk about it in a helpful constructive manner, a place where you had to have a decent tree in an avatar and everyone used their real name so I knew if I was talking to someone I have known for thirty years that wouldn't talk to me like that in real life.
Guess you are not up for setting a forum like that up?
 

Smoke

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Already had them numerous times. AofB, Bonsai Study Group, which is where three or four of the characters here are from Like Adair and Markey, mostly the old Boon group. But guys like John Kirby ran every one off, so it is what it is.

I have absolutely no interest in having a forum. I would be pissed off all the time and be banning people so much that pretty soon all that would be left is arguing with myself.

The problem is you need newbies to keep the thing going. People get bored and stop posting, have families with small children and things like that take up loads of spare time. I raised a family, I know how hard it is to juggle baths, homework, dinner doing dishes and laundry at 9 o clock at night. The problem is once a new person comes here and gets a couple months under their belt, they become all mouth. I can help everyone here, This is easy. Till someone asks about a styling question, then about half shut up, but the other half start suggesting windswept and literati designs that seem to be the go to style when you don't know shit. All these newbies talk like they been doing this for years and have magnificent collections, they won't show you if you ask though, cause they want the trees to shine in their backyard, where family talk them up. They don't want anyone here talking about their tree, it hurts too much. Rather than ask you how it can be improved they want to tell you your a loud mouth and bad for the forum. Sorry there are not too many people here that know shit about bonsai any more and post on a regular basis.

The truth is a big problem for people, it forces you to face your demons and really take an objective view of your self and your tree. In the seven months I was gone, I watched MR Wonderful become a part of this forum. Something I have been doing since 1996. I did not post. I decided to enter the frey with him since he was posting about all the wonderful things learned at Mirai. If it so wonderful, and you have decided to share it on a public forum, are you equally ready to share what you learned that demands such high praise? He wasn't. He told me so, Rudely. I asked for some supporting documentation into this new found gold mine of information. maybe there are some people here that have no idea who Ryan is. Maybe they are reading and would have loved to see just how much there is to 300.00 a year instruction via the net. But we have someone that is embarrassed at his meager collection and does not wish to open it to ridicule because he has a perceived notion that someone will just laugh and call it shit. That does not happen here. If it did that person would be rode out of town on a rail. It has happened here and they are gone, it don't take long.

I have taken trees and shown them in the most rudimentary form, and taken the forum thru my process in making a tree in sometimes less than five years
a1.JPG a2.JPG a60.JPG

I have shown grafting of branches, how I hedge prune, How I get ramification and how I style. When I posted the process on this tree, it was done in less than five years. From a ball and bagged piece of shit to a fairly substantial Shohin maple. There are people on this forum since it started that have not even shared a picture much less have anything worth after as much a 15 years that the forum has been around. But they just keep talking like they are pro's and something to say in every post. It does not matter if it's good opinion or poor opinion, it spews forth like a geyser.
You guys are smart, you know who these people are. You never see a tree from them, but boy they have something to say about every ones tree. Guys like you leatherback, you don't like me. hell you don't even know me, but you have made an opinion. Ask Greg or Adair what kind of guy I am? For whatever reason I am hated just like Trump by some people. You have no idea how it could be around here, because you were not around when it was cool here. when people didn't take sides and just talked about the tree and how can I help. It's just not that way anymore, and neither is the world.

Not only that I take great pictures and lots of them. I know they are appreciated.
 

penumbra

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Thanks Smoke for the cheap on the go bonsai mix suggestions. I am sure there will be many who gain from this.
However, the op is talking about growing on seedlings and for that you can't beat the efficacy and price of a Pro Mix like potting mix.
 

leatherback

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Guys like you leatherback, you don't like me.
huh?
Not sure why you get the impression I do not like you?

I do hope you do not share me under the people that never show their work, nor want to learn?
 

leatherback

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I have absolutely no interest in having a forum. I would be pissed off all the time and be banning people so much that pretty soon all that would be left is arguing with myself.
lol, I can see that happening.

The truth is a big problem for people, it forces you to face your demons and really take an objective view of your self and your tree.
True. Last night I was kicked out of a group because I asked why someone wanted to buy a chopped moneytree stump. BIG escalation. Nobody bothered to ask why I would not buy them. Instead they kicked me out.
 

Mikecheck123

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Already had them numerous times. AofB, Bonsai Study Group, which is where three or four of the characters here are from Like Adair and Markey, mostly the old Boon group. But guys like John Kirby ran every one off, so it is what it is.

I have absolutely no interest in having a forum. I would be pissed off all the time and be banning people so much that pretty soon all that would be left is arguing with myself.

The problem is you need newbies to keep the thing going. People get bored and stop posting, have families with small children and things like that take up loads of spare time. I raised a family, I know how hard it is to juggle baths, homework, dinner doing dishes and laundry at 9 o clock at night. The problem is once a new person comes here and gets a couple months under their belt, they become all mouth. I can help everyone here, This is easy. Till someone asks about a styling question, then about half shut up, but the other half start suggesting windswept and literati designs that seem to be the go to style when you don't know shit. All these newbies talk like they been doing this for years and have magnificent collections, they won't show you if you ask though, cause they want the trees to shine in their backyard, where family talk them up. They don't want anyone here talking about their tree, it hurts too much. Rather than ask you how it can be improved they want to tell you your a loud mouth and bad for the forum. Sorry there are not too many people here that know shit about bonsai any more and post on a regular basis.

The truth is a big problem for people, it forces you to face your demons and really take an objective view of your self and your tree. In the seven months I was gone, I watched MR Wonderful become a part of this forum. Something I have been doing since 1996. I did not post. I decided to enter the frey with him since he was posting about all the wonderful things learned at Mirai. If it so wonderful, and you have decided to share it on a public forum, are you equally ready to share what you learned that demands such high praise? He wasn't. He told me so, Rudely. I asked for some supporting documentation into this new found gold mine of information. maybe there are some people here that have no idea who Ryan is. Maybe they are reading and would have loved to see just how much there is to 300.00 a year instruction via the net. But we have someone that is embarrassed at his meager collection and does not wish to open it to ridicule because he has a perceived notion that someone will just laugh and call it shit. That does not happen here. If it did that person would be rode out of town on a rail. It has happened here and they are gone, it don't take long.

I have taken trees and shown them in the most rudimentary form, and taken the forum thru my process in making a tree in sometimes less than five years
View attachment 307108 View attachment 307110 View attachment 307109

I have shown grafting of branches, how I hedge prune, How I get ramification and how I style. When I posted the process on this tree, it was done in less than five years. From a ball and bagged piece of shit to a fairly substantial Shohin maple. There are people on this forum since it started that have not even shared a picture much less have anything worth after as much a 15 years that the forum has been around. But they just keep talking like they are pro's and something to say in every post. It does not matter if it's good opinion or poor opinion, it spews forth like a geyser.
You guys are smart, you know who these people are. You never see a tree from them, but boy they have something to say about every ones tree. Guys like you leatherback, you don't like me. hell you don't even know me, but you have made an opinion. Ask Greg or Adair what kind of guy I am? For whatever reason I am hated just like Trump by some people. You have no idea how it could be around here, because you were not around when it was cool here. when people didn't take sides and just talked about the tree and how can I help. It's just not that way anymore, and neither is the world.

Not only that I take great pictures and lots of them. I know they are appreciated.
FWIW, this is a well-known general internet phenomenon (the beginner siege) and not a bonsainut phenomenon specifically.

In just the last year, traffic here has just about doubled. Those ain't professional artists joining.

There was a thread a little while ago where there was a lot of discussion about whether this needs to be addressed and how, but not much if anything was decided.

On a forum like reddit, this kind of thing is only effectively managed by very aggressive moderation, which, no surprise, is off-putting to the noobs. Even with that, there's still no mechanism to stop a noob like me commenting that all your stuff is trash.

I kid, but you get the point and wouldn't blame you for leaving.
 

Shibui

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back to the original question:
The larger the pot the less important the soil mix becomes. In larger, deeper pots you can use any good general potting mix and the trees will grow just fine. Ask how much (or little) your tree is worth then look at the cost of bagged potting mix. made by professionals who know the science behind plant growth in pots. Balance that against some newby who has done a few hours tentative research and still has no idea but mixes up something anyway.

Water is far less of an issue in deeper pots as the saturated layer is much lower in the pot leaving plenty of aerated mix above for roots.

Add plenty of fertiliser. It is hard to overdo organic fert because it is so low analysis and takes time to release. Blood meal may not contain all the elements and trace elements needed for optimum growth. (very little K?)
I would supplement with liquid at recommended rates to keep growth high.
 
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What Shibui says is right on the money. If you have large pots, the soil isn't so important. But also, your root system won't be very good, which isn't great for bonsai. I think that the point of growing maples from seedlings or seed is that you can have great nebari, taper, branching, etc. right from the start. To do that, it helps to use good bonsai soil. Boon mix is good for developing maples, and if you are super concerned with cost, your best bet is pure pumice. I've got some Japanese maples that I've grown in pots only, and I used bonsai soil with great results. Just use sacrifice branches to add lots of growth. Bonsai nurseries here in Oregon use pure pumice with outstanding results.

If you want larger trees, up-potting until you have a big pot in regular potting soil should work fine. Don't start them in big pots though. But if you want kifu or shohin sized trees, I would use small terracotta pots and bonsai soil, then getting the tree into a small pot will be easy, with the added bonus of great nebari.
 

MrWunderful

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Already had them numerous times. AofB, Bonsai Study Group, which is where three or four of the characters here are from Like Adair and Markey, mostly the old Boon group. But guys like John Kirby ran every one off, so it is what it is.

I have absolutely no interest in having a forum. I would be pissed off all the time and be banning people so much that pretty soon all that would be left is arguing with myself.

The problem is you need newbies to keep the thing going. People get bored and stop posting, have families with small children and things like that take up loads of spare time. I raised a family, I know how hard it is to juggle baths, homework, dinner doing dishes and laundry at 9 o clock at night. The problem is once a new person comes here and gets a couple months under their belt, they become all mouth. I can help everyone here, This is easy. Till someone asks about a styling question, then about half shut up, but the other half start suggesting windswept and literati designs that seem to be the go to style when you don't know shit. All these newbies talk like they been doing this for years and have magnificent collections, they won't show you if you ask though, cause they want the trees to shine in their backyard, where family talk them up. They don't want anyone here talking about their tree, it hurts too much. Rather than ask you how it can be improved they want to tell you your a loud mouth and bad for the forum. Sorry there are not too many people here that know shit about bonsai any more and post on a regular basis.

The truth is a big problem for people, it forces you to face your demons and really take an objective view of your self and your tree. In the seven months I was gone, I watched MR Wonderful become a part of this forum. Something I have been doing since 1996. I did not post. I decided to enter the frey with him since he was posting about all the wonderful things learned at Mirai. If it so wonderful, and you have decided to share it on a public forum, are you equally ready to share what you learned that demands such high praise? He wasn't. He told me so, Rudely. I asked for some supporting documentation into this new found gold mine of information. maybe there are some people here that have no idea who Ryan is. Maybe they are reading and would have loved to see just how much there is to 300.00 a year instruction via the net. But we have someone that is embarrassed at his meager collection and does not wish to open it to ridicule because he has a perceived notion that someone will just laugh and call it shit. That does not happen here. If it did that person would be rode out of town on a rail. It has happened here and they are gone, it don't take long.

I have taken trees and shown them in the most rudimentary form, and taken the forum thru my process in making a tree in sometimes less than five years
View attachment 307108 View attachment 307110 View attachment 307109

I have shown grafting of branches, how I hedge prune, How I get ramification and how I style. When I posted the process on this tree, it was done in less than five years. From a ball and bagged piece of shit to a fairly substantial Shohin maple. There are people on this forum since it started that have not even shared a picture much less have anything worth after as much a 15 years that the forum has been around. But they just keep talking like they are pro's and something to say in every post. It does not matter if it's good opinion or poor opinion, it spews forth like a geyser.
You guys are smart, you know who these people are. You never see a tree from them, but boy they have something to say about every ones tree. Guys like you leatherback, you don't like me. hell you don't even know me, but you have made an opinion. Ask Greg or Adair what kind of guy I am? For whatever reason I am hated just like Trump by some people. You have no idea how it could be around here, because you were not around when it was cool here. when people didn't take sides and just talked about the tree and how can I help. It's just not that way anymore, and neither is the world.

Not only that I take great pictures and lots of them. I know they are appreciated.

You arent hated, just a cranky Old man who has an inferiority complex and thinks people owe him something.

its obvious in the way you refer to this place a with condescension, as a “Beginner” forum. I can see why your forums failed.

At least I got you to show and and Give this person some help with their soil instead of calling them idiots and admonishing them for having shitty trees. Mission accomplished!
 

MrWunderful

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The kind to run around talking shit about people behind their back.

The stuff you said about @MrWunderful isn't even true.

🍆

Sorce

its all good, the fact that he didnt @ me says volumes.
If I can get him to allow the kids on his lawn and use his knowledge to help someone else out, than I’ve done my job.
 
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