Meat and potato bonsai discussion

[Smoke]

In the spirit of me going to the coast for my sixtieth Birthday this Saturday, I thought I would leave you all with something to contemplate. I will be leaving Friday for three days and it occurred to me while posting the last tree in the Toe dip thread that something is weird.

I look at lots and lots of discussion forums daily. At work, driving in the truck, in the crapper, driving in the car, and while watching TV. What I have noticed is this feeling of "blase"

bla·sé
bläˈzā/
adjective

1. unimpressed or indifferent to something because one has experienced or seen it so often before.
   "she was becoming quite blasé about the dangers"
   synonyms: indifferent, unconcerned, uncaring, casual, nonchalant, offhand,uninterested, apathetic, unimpressed, unmoved, surfeited, jaded,unresponsive, phlegmatic;
   informallaid-back

When I am at IBC and look at trees of Pavel Slovak I am moved in a way that is akin to walking into a premier bonsai exhibit for the first time and seeing trees that are spectacular and never been seen before. I wonder sometimes that being on a discussion forum for so many years, in fact many discussion forums for so many years that one loses that special feeling for a tree. So much so that the tree becomes so dominate in nature that you don't even open the threads any more because the tree hardly changes.

I will be attending Artisans Cup in September and wonder how much I will walk around unimpressed because I have seen the trees so many times. I have seen all the California trees coming and many of the Oregon trees.
Due to the internet has the bonsai world reached a point of saturation that trees hold no special Wow factor anymore?

What say you? Anybody want to see this tree again?

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I don't think so but I have not seen a great number of trees compared to you.
You cannot fully capture the tree in a photo in my opinion.
You can always look at the pots if you don't like the trees.
Or just go for the networking and ignore the trees.

 

[RichKid]

I'm nowhere near your level of an artist or horticulturalist, and for me I do still love to see nice trees in person, which I rarely get to see. Concerning the internet I also don't open every thread because it is often redundant. A lot of the pics and blogs I have explored and seen most of what's there. A lot of you guys have great blogs though. At the same time there's no way anyone can maintain enough content on a single blog to keep it fresh constantly for readers. Even forums like this one become stale. I myself am grateful for forums like this one though because it enables relatively green hobbyists such as myself to receive feedback wisdom and guidance from pros and very experienced people like you and the others who are so kind as to reply to our trivial questions. I think it's lost a lot of luster for you because you have no questions that we can answer that you can't answer yourself. Along w the fact that you've seen so many of those nice trees in person that we have only seen through a screen. It's tough being seasoned. Lol

 

[garywood]

Al, I'll also be at AC but I'll be looking at the AHH factor while reverse engineering of what they see and why. I'm not" exposed" as you but I do look forward to seeing it. See you there!

 

[Smoke]

Al, I'll also be at AC but I'll be looking at the AHH factor while reverse engineering of what they see and why. I'm not" exposed" as you but I do look forward to seeing it. See you there!

Ditto on the reverse engineering. I am looking forward to seeing it..or more truthfully, "experiencing it".

 

[Smoke]

I'm nowhere near your level of an artist or horticulturalist, and for me I do still love to see nice trees in person, which I rarely get to see. Concerning the internet I also don't open every thread because it is often redundant. A lot of the pics and blogs I have explored and seen most of what's there. A lot of you guys have great blogs though. At the same time there's no way anyone can maintain enough content on a single blog to keep it fresh constantly for readers. Even forums like this one become stale. I myself am grateful for forums like this one though because it enables relatively green hobbyists such as myself to receive feedback wisdom and guidance from pros and very experienced people like you and the others who are so kind as to reply to our trivial questions. I think it's lost a lot of luster for you because you have no questions that we can answer that you can't answer yourself. Along w the fact that you've seen so many of those nice trees in person that we have only seen through a screen. It's tough being seasoned. Lol

I do too. I mentioned Pavel Slovak because he will show a progression out of the blue with a starting tree from five years ago and see a finished tree, or at least what I assume to me looks finished all in one throw. For my blog I have content up the wazoo, I just can't sit for hours, compile the pictures and write the text anymore. Probably just too hot. I am going to the coast to compile the second half of a huge Muranaka expose that will be killer. It will be like 10 pages long when I get done. Everyone will want to see that one. A good glimpse into the past, present and future of Muranaka Bonsai. I am excited.

 

[RichKid]

Sounds very informative and entertaining! I'll keep an eye out for it! Thanks for keeping us going!

 

[Eric Group]

I think this is a valid point to a degree Smoke.. If I make put it in my own words- we are becoming desensitized to beautiful trees by viewing them so often on the net? It is true of so many things these days... Similar to the arguments about violent games, TV and movies I guess and how they desensitize people to violence...

The thing. Is though- for those of us who rarely get to go to exhibits (maybe once a year for me if I am lucky!)- there is always a bigger impact to see good trees in person! The first time I visited the NC Arboretum or Chicago Botanical Gardens, and saw real professional collections of beautiful trees in person, it was impactful on a level I had never come close to viewing them online. I hope people do not lose that "wow factor" for trees form Internet forums... That would be a sad thing.

 

[Smoke]

Can you see yourself going to the Arboretum every six months?

Yearly? Or every five years?

 

[edprocoat]

Shit, I thought this discussion was about food ! Now I am hungry ...



ed

 

[Smoke]

It's 1 AM go to bed

 

[Dav4]

What Eric said. As for you Al, have a great weekend. I recommend gin and tonics when on the coast...it just makes sense.

 

[JudyB]

Interesting premise. I don't think that I get tired of seeing a tree that I love, and seeing where it is later in time than the last look. An unchanging tree I suppose could get that way a bit. I think that's just human nature, like a painting on your wall, you love the painting, but do you "see" the painting after you've had it for a long time. Or a landscape that you live in, other people (who don't live there) see it's beauty more clearly than you do. Sometimes you can see it afresh through their eyes. And sometimes, you really just look again at it yourself and realize what you have. I like the progression threads here, and pretty much always look at them, but I know that the newer threads get looked at more. I've posted a new pic to an old thread with no replies, posted the same tree in a new thread, and gotten answered.
I think that the proliferation of trees that look largely the same may lead to more innovative trees in the future maybe.
I'm not tired of seeing that trident, where is the wizard of oz these days?

Happy 60th!

 

[Eric Group]

Can you see yourself going to the Arboretum every six months?

Yearly? Or every five years?

I try to go yearly for the Carolina Bonsai exhibit. If I lived there I'd probably be a volunteer or something and bug the crap out of Arthur as many days as I could go!

 

[rockm]

Can you see yourself going to the Arboretum every six months?

Yearly? Or every five years?

The Internet gives a false impression that can kill or seriously injure your view of bonsai. Using the Internet as a sole source for bonsai artistic and practical skills is similar to thinking you learned to play guitar because you're good at Guitar Hero on the xbox.

This Internet tends to warp alot of things, including bonsai esthetics. The sense of "I am an expert because I look at the trees on the Internet a lot," is, unfortunately, becoming more prevalent. People see really great trees online, but they are missing more than half of what good bonsai is. In person, great trees have an unexplainable "presence." Their artists designed in three dimensions specifically to draw a person standing in front of the tree into the composition. That is completely lost in pictures.

I have been lucky to live less than a 20 minute drive from one of the premier bonsai collections in the U.S. at the National Arboretum. I've been going there for 25 years now just to look at the growing collections. Because I'm lucky enough to live such a short distance from such a valuable reference point, I understood from the start that bonsai was a lot more than mallsai junipers and S-curved elms. I'm spoiled, I know. Every time I visit, I come home rejuvenated about bonsai. Those trees inspire more than anything I've seen on the Internet. They are developing still, even if they are 350 years old.

The value of actually seeing great bonsai IN PERSON cannot be overestimated. If you don't live near a collection, join a club, or make your own. Get out and be with other bonsai people. It will open your eyes. If none of that exists where you live, make plans to incorporate getting to a decent bonsai place on your next vacation. If you can't do that, seek inspiration from the landscape around you. Go see "monumental" real trees (biggest, oldest, etc) in your area. There are lists of those trees all over the Internet.
http://www.americanforests.org/our-programs/bigtree/

Don't fall into the "I can do it because I saw it on a video on the Internet" trap. I don't care how talented you think you are. If you haven't seen "real" world class bonsai up close, you're doing bonsai in black and white. There's a Technicolor world waiting for you.

 

[Vance Wood]

Mark: Great article.
This is after all true to a point. It is indeed impossible to portray the three dimensional aspect of bonsai with a two dimensional photograph. You are totally and absolutely correct that you cannot portray the "Spiritual Quality" of a bonsai on the INTERNET. However this is only half the battle. As many are drawn into thinking they are capable of doing things they have seen on the INTERNET the same are loath to consider that they are living in a fantasy. If you cannot or have not done those things you think you can do then you're allowing your fantasies to make you delusional.

You can acquire all of the inspiration, even money can provide, but if you don't do the work to make the inspiration a reality you are living in an illusion. Of course it depends on what level you want to do bonsai or what your goals are in bonsai. Some want these magnificent trees and will pay any amount of money to get them. This is the goal; the acquisition of world class bonsai. I don't fault them for this desire. They spend the money that makes it possible for every one else in bonsai to continue their quest. Others want to make those kinds of bonsai and it is here where people lose their footing. They lose their footing because in some cases those who belong to the first group, are too willing to tell the second group how artistically bankrupt they are, when in fact they don't have a clue how to get to a point beyond their check book. This is what they tell people. You have to buy world class material to make world class bonsai. This may be true but it is impractical for most of the bonsai community.

So the second group thinks they can grow these wonderful bonsai if they frequent this site, and that site, and look at all these wonderful pictures and watch all of these wonderful videos; but don't do the work necessary to accomplish this level of out put. They will either continue with their imaginary bonsai skills or they will progress to a certain point and refuse to go beyond it. Some of these individuals will try to convince themselves that they don't want to go beyond were they are now. They have defeated themselves in their own minds and believe they can do not better. They will get angry if you try to convince them that they can go beyond where they are at.

Then you have those who imagine great things but don't do any of them and you have those who do great things. You, me and every body else has to decide where they fit. If you are not happey with where you are then change your location. Move the bar higher! The worst that can happen is that you may be, for one reason or another, forced to walk under it, but at least it is there for you to go over if you desire. But: thinking about it, looking at information about it, and watching other people do it will not make you any better than what you are now if you do not do the work to improve. These are the ideas and the inspirations that you give birth to.

 

[rockm]

Along with the rest of the world, this:
http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...iew-of-the-world/story-fnjwmwrh-1227444648699

is creeping up on bonsai, to its detriment.

Getting out and talking to people and seeing trees IN PERSON will make you see and feel differently about the whole sport. Personal interaction is key, I think, to doing bonsai. Doesn't mean you have to hire an instructor, go to classes, etc. Means simply that getting out and talking to other bonsai people FACE TO FACE and seeing trees IN PERSON provides not only practical information like precisely where to cut a twig for maximum effect, but it also opens up your mind to what's possible.
BTW, just walking around the vendor area of a local bonsai show can sometimes yield remarkable conversations and open your eyes. I had an epiphany of sorts seeing those old tiny bonsai pots Matt Ouwinga sells at the ABS show last month. Hadn't seen a lot of them before then. Now I actually understand why people buy them after holding one in front of me. Pots are another perfect example of having to see them in person to really appreciate them.

You can also skip all of the online drama that always shows up on any bonsai site too. All that drama just doesn't happen IRL.