Mentors, winters and more!

[Johnathan]

So first just to get the quick questions out of the way...

#1, does "feel like" temperatures play a role in winterizing bonsai?

#2, last year I only had 1 maple, an Amur maple. I left it outside all year and it survived our freezing and all the elements. This year, now I have tridents and Japanese maples as well. Can they also survive outside winter with little to no protection?

#3, is there any special precautions to take when overwintering air layers?

And finally the real reason I wanted to post... I don't typically keep up with Bonsai people. I mean, I know of Bjorn, Ryan, and Walter but that's about the extent of the professional bonsai people I know.

Recently I started listening to the bonsai podcast as a way to kill time at work, blew through all the episodes of Bjorn's and now I'm up to about episode 5 of Mirai's podcast.

Anyway, all of this discussion has really changed how I view "professionals" and the people who are REALLY involved with the hobby.

It has also made me appreciate this forum and the guys who I consider professionals here like BVF, Adair, Smoke, Vance, Sorce, TeslaScott, Mach (etc etc I could keep going but I feel like I'm rambling) anyway, being here in OKC I don't really feel like there is HUGE bonsai learning experience available.

So with that being said, all of these podcasts and my feeble mind got me to thinking, could there be a such thing as an Online Apprenticeship... then I figured not really because Apprenticeship would have to be more hands on. So I change the question to you all. Could there be a thing as an online mentorship? If so how would it work? For those of us smart enough to actually take the advice given on these forums is that the extent of an online mentorship?

Just thoughts.

 

[0soyoung]

It is a fact that the pattern of deepening overnight chill induces cold hardiness. Many professional and aspiring scientists have taken groups of seedlings and put them in freezers at various temperatures and noted the cold temperature at which they died after being exposed to various depths of chilling. I've attached one such scholarly paper on the subject.

Air layers, cuttings, seedlings are the same living cells as the trees they came from and respond in the same way. Size only affects transitory effects, like chilling a big tree takes a bit longer time than chilling the small mass of the thin trunks of little saplings, that's all.


I've learned everything by reading scholarly papers, looking at pix, and other on line resources, and fiddling/experimenting with my own trees. Yes, an on-line apprenticeship is possible. Trying to explain stuff is a handy way to test your comprehension (obviously I still have my difficulties understanding stuff).

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Johnathan
copied your questions, answers in blue font.
#1, does "feel like" temperatures play a role in winterizing bonsai?
Yes, best cold hardiness comes develops during an 8 to 12 week period of steadily declining night time temperatures. Sudden shift from warm to cold, without the slow acclimatization can result in freeze damage in species that normally would be winter hardy. For example, high bush blueberry flower buds are hardy to -17 F with slow progressive cooling. When exposed to 5 days of above 50 F at night, then suddenly subjected to zero F, there was a near 100% loss of flower buds, total crop failure for 2013, even though zero is well above the temperature the flower buds were hardy. Example is from fruit because bonsai is not an economic crop, data is seldom published.

Best cold hardiness is an 8 to 12 week period of slowly declining night time temperature. Protect trees that have been imported from warmer zones. Protect trees that have had work done (repotting, heavy pruning & or wiring) too close to or inside this 8 to 12 week adaptation period.

#2, last year I only had 1 maple, an Amur maple. I left it outside all year and it survived our freezing and all the elements. This year, now I have tridents and Japanese maples as well. Can they also survive outside winter with little to no protection?
Amur maple is hardy to the warm side of zone 3. It is the most cold tolerant maple with leaves small enough for bonsai. All other maples are less hardy. I believe in your area Japanese maples and trident should be hardy. I would site the JM and Tridents in a spot out of the wind, set them on the ground or bury the pots into the ground. Winter shade would be best for Trident and JM.

#3, is there any special precautions to take when overwintering air layers? If they were separated more than 12 weeks before your first hard freeze, no special care is needed. If they were separated less than 8 weeks before first frost, do protect them for the winter - this counts as "major work" in that they will be trying to grow a new root system. If air layer has not formed enough roots to be separated, don't worry about them I often leave an air layer hanging in the parent tree over the winter. Winter the parent tree, with the air layers as you would normally winter them.

And finally the real reason I wanted to post... I don't typically keep up with Bonsai people. I mean, I know of Bjorn, Ryan, and Walter but that's about the extent of the professional bonsai people I know.

Recently I started listening to the bonsai podcast as a way to kill time at work, blew through all the episodes of Bjorn's and now I'm up to about episode 5 of Mirai's podcast.

Anyway, all of this discussion has really changed how I view "professionals" and the people who are REALLY involved with the hobby.

It has also made me appreciate this forum and the guys who I consider professionals here like BVF, Adair, Smoke, Vance, Sorce, TeslaScott, Mach (etc etc I could keep going but I feel like I'm rambling) anyway, being here in OKC I don't really feel like there is HUGE bonsai learning experience available.

So with that being said, all of these podcasts and my feeble mind got me to thinking, could there be a such thing as an Online Apprenticeship... then I figured not really because Apprenticeship would have to be more hands on. So I change the question to you all. Could there be a thing as an online mentorship? If so how would it work? For those of us smart enough to actually take the advice given on these forums is that the extent of an online mentorship?

On line mentors, There is no formal program, but you could do as a few people have done with me. Reach out to a bonsai personality whose post and writing style you like, and seems truly knowledgeable. Ask them if they would be willing to take you on, being your mentor. You'd be surprised, a number of people will be happy to do so.

I have given my phone number to a few people, I get calls, texts, pm's, and emails asking about one horticultural problem or another. So I guess you could say I mentor these people. I'm good with the horticulture, I don't have the artistic chops the bonsai professionals have. But then again I don't charge for my time. A couple of my "students" show up and help me out now and then. One of my former ''students" has become my mentor, as he took the deep dive, and quickly surpassed me in knowledge and hands on skill, and artistic skills. Its humbling to become the student of your own student, but it feels good to be put in your place.. Keeps it real.

Bonsai Mirai - Ryan will answer personal emails and calls from "Level 3" members. His time is valuable, the top tier membership includes answering personal questions, essentially a certain amount of mentorship.

You can get a version of an apprenticeship by attending the weekend intensives with the several artists that offer them. Boon, Mike Hagedorn, I think Jonas Dupuich, others have some version of this, including Colin Lewis, Jim Doyle, Bill Valavanis, Walter Pall, Jennifer Price, Peter Tea and others who I don't recall off the top of my head. Look around, send a few emails, see who's work you like & respect, and has a personality you would enjoy. There are opportunities out there.

Formal ones will cost some money, informal arrangements will often be free.

 

[rockm]

@Johnathan
copied your questions, answers in blue font.
#1, does "feel like" temperatures play a role in winterizing bonsai?
Yes, best cold hardiness comes develops during an 8 to 12 week period of steadily declining night time temperatures. Sudden shift from warm to cold, without the slow acclimatization can result in freeze damage in species that normally would be winter hardy. For example, high bush blueberry flower buds are hardy to -17 F with slow progressive cooling. When exposed to 5 days of above 50 F at night, then suddenly subjected to zero F, there was a near 100% loss of flower buds, total crop failure for 2013, even though zero is well above the temperature the flower buds were hardy. Example is from fruit because bonsai is not an economic crop, data is seldom published.

Best cold hardiness is an 8 to 12 week period of slowly declining night time temperature. Protect trees that have been imported from warmer zones. Protect trees that have had work done (repotting, heavy pruning & or wiring) too close to or inside this 8 to 12 week adaptation period.

#2, last year I only had 1 maple, an Amur maple. I left it outside all year and it survived our freezing and all the elements. This year, now I have tridents and Japanese maples as well. Can they also survive outside winter with little to no protection?
Amur maple is hardy to the warm side of zone 3. It is the most cold tolerant maple with leaves small enough for bonsai. All other maples are less hardy. I believe in your area Japanese maples and trident should be hardy. I would site the JM and Tridents in a spot out of the wind, set them on the ground or bury the pots into the ground. Winter shade would be best for Trident and JM.

#3, is there any special precautions to take when overwintering air layers? If they were separated more than 12 weeks before your first hard freeze, no special care is needed. If they were separated less than 8 weeks before first frost, do protect them for the winter - this counts as "major work" in that they will be trying to grow a new root system. If air layer has not formed enough roots to be separated, don't worry about them I often leave an air layer hanging in the parent tree over the winter. Winter the parent tree, with the air layers as you would normally winter them.

And finally the real reason I wanted to post... I don't typically keep up with Bonsai people. I mean, I know of Bjorn, Ryan, and Walter but that's about the extent of the professional bonsai people I know.

Recently I started listening to the bonsai podcast as a way to kill time at work, blew through all the episodes of Bjorn's and now I'm up to about episode 5 of Mirai's podcast.

Anyway, all of this discussion has really changed how I view "professionals" and the people who are REALLY involved with the hobby.

It has also made me appreciate this forum and the guys who I consider professionals here like BVF, Adair, Smoke, Vance, Sorce, TeslaScott, Mach (etc etc I could keep going but I feel like I'm rambling) anyway, being here in OKC I don't really feel like there is HUGE bonsai learning experience available.

So with that being said, all of these podcasts and my feeble mind got me to thinking, could there be a such thing as an Online Apprenticeship... then I figured not really because Apprenticeship would have to be more hands on. So I change the question to you all. Could there be a thing as an online mentorship? If so how would it work? For those of us smart enough to actually take the advice given on these forums is that the extent of an online mentorship?

On line mentors, There is no formal program, but you could do as a few people have done with me. Reach out to a bonsai personality whose post and writing style you like, and seems truly knowledgeable. Ask them if they would be willing to take you on, being your mentor. You'd be surprised, a number of people will be happy to do so.

I have given my phone number to a few people, I get calls, texts, pm's, and emails asking about one horticultural problem or another. So I guess you could say I mentor these people. I'm good with the horticulture, I don't have the artistic chops the bonsai professionals have. But then again I don't charge for my time. A couple of my "students" show up and help me out now and then. One of my former ''students" has become my mentor, as he took the deep dive, and quickly surpassed me in knowledge and hands on skill, and artistic skills. Its humbling to become the student of your own student, but it feels good to be put in your place.. Keeps it real.

Bonsai Mirai - Ryan will answer personal emails and calls from "Level 3" members. His time is valuable, the top tier membership includes answering personal questions, essentially a certain amount of mentorship.

You can get a version of an apprenticeship by attending the weekend intensives with the several artists that offer them. Boon, Mike Hagedorn, I think Jonas Dupuich, others have some version of this, including Colin Lewis, Jim Doyle, Bill Valavanis, Walter Pall, Jennifer Price, Peter Tea and others who I don't recall off the top of my head. Look around, send a few emails, see who's work you like & respect, and has a personality you would enjoy. There are opportunities out there.

Formal ones will cost some money, informal arrangements will often be free.

Again, I heartily second what Leo has said. I have mentored people way back when when the American Bonsai Society had an online mentor program. I've also worked with a few folks over the years that I've met in person and online (a couple from this site even). I'd say the in-person meetings were the most valuable. I've kept ongoing relationships with some of them over the years. One, who shall remain nameless, has a collection of pretty spectacular trees that he has put together and developed himself. His trees are now better than mine.

Anyway, best way to get hands on mentoring experience is to reach out and ask for it. Go to any bonsai event you can. TALK to people face to face. Online is fine, but actually meeting with and talking to bonsai folks IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, MORE REWARDING AND INFORMATIVE experience than ANY video, forum or Facebook page can EVER provide.

 

[M. Frary]

the warm side of zone 3.

That's me!
We'll see how cold hardy these things really are.
I'll show it some minus thirty temps to test it.
I won't just "leave it out" though.
May as well spray it with Garlon now.
It will be mulched in.
In my new enclosure that's just about done.

 

[M. Frary]

. One, who shall remain nameless, has a collection of pretty spectacular trees that he has put together and developed himself. His trees are now better than mine

Go ahead.
I won't mind.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Johnathan

I just realized I did not answer the question you asked. I answered a question confabulated by the voices in my head. LOL

#1, does "feel like" temperatures play a role in winterizing bonsai

Wind Chill, or Feel Like temperatures are basically nonsense when it comes to horticulture. They are a measure of how quickly human skin looses heat. There is no correlation to the effect of wind on twigs, bark and leaves. So don't worry about "Wind Chill" or "Feels Like", it is a measurement that does not correlate to anything in horticulture.

Now wind does have an effect on how a twig or branch looses moisture. But most hardy trees have waxy coatings, or bark or other protections that minimize water loss to wind. An interesting phenomena is "Sun Scald", in winter, when you have a bright sunny day where you can actually feel the heat of the sun, usually in late January or early February. Yet the temperature may still be quite a bit below freezing, sub-zero, you can have twigs, branches or trunks heat up in the sun, to temps above freezing, and they can split, or crack due to rapid expansion and then contraction of the bark. Water loss happens through these cracks and splits, and there will be damage. Damage often happens later in spring when bacteria or fungi invade the wound and cause further damage. In orchards, this is the reason white paper tape is wrapped around trunks of young plantings that still have smooth bark. Avoiding sun scald is why it is suggested you winter twiggy trees in the shade. Not so much out of the cold, but out of the wind and the sun.

Concern for dehydration in cold windy weather is the reason it is often suggested to protect bonsai from wind during winter. It is a valid concern. Especially for fine twiggy trees that are more developed than younger pre-bonsai.

 

[coh]

@Johnathan

I just realized I did not answer the question you asked. I answered a question confabulated by the voices in my head. LOL

#1, does "feel like" temperatures play a role in winterizing bonsai

Wind Chill, or Feel Like temperatures are basically nonsense when it comes to horticulture. They are a measure of how quickly human skin looses heat. There is no correlation to the effect of wind on twigs, bark and leaves. So don't worry about "Wind Chill" or "Feels Like", it is a measurement that does not correlate to anything in horticulture.

But...while plants don't experience wind chill like we do, the presence of wind will remove residual heat from an object faster than if there is no wind. So if a plant is hardy to say 10 F and you leave it out on a calm night where it gets down to 5 F...the core of the root mass may stay above the critical temp. However, if it is 5 F with a strong wind blowing, that pot/root mass will cool off faster and could go below the critical temp. I would think the same could apply to trunks/branches/twigs as well.

It doesn't matter though if the "wind chill" temp is -20, what matters is the actual air temp and the presence of wind will cool off the pot and plant tissues faster.

 

[AlainK]

@Johnathan
copied your questions, answers in blue font.

Best advice we can get

Thanks Leo.