Monster DAS, should I dig?

[James W.]

I have permission to take this large dwarf Alberta spruce. The question is, do I want it? The owner would yank it up with a back hoe for me or I could pay $500 for a tree spade (which would certainly improve its odds for survival). Then haul it 7hrs to get back home.
This would be a challenging project right from the get go. All the issues of DAS plus being really big. A 100 year project. But, wow, can you imagine what it would look like as a 8 foot tall formal upright?

 

[atlarsenal]

We don’t have to imagine. Just look at the picture.

 

[augustine]

No, spend your precious time on something else.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I too believe this might never reward your effort, or the effort of the generation after you.
DAS backbud irregularly and are very hard to style due to their natural growth habit.
They are cheap to obtain from nurseries, like 10 dollars cheap!
Laying down 7 hours and/or 500 bucks to get it out, and spending 2 years on restoration before you can work this giant means that it's going to take a looooot of effort to ever return you a little favor in 20-40 years time, if it even makes it.

Loads of effort, slim chance it'll make it, no interesting features to begin with.. sounds like a pass. I had a couple of these situations this winter, they're tough decisions but they're for your own good ;-)

 

[James W.]

I wish I had said something a couple months sooner. I could have gotten some 1/3 to 1/2 this size. Much more manageable. I wouldn't have had any second thought about those.

 

[just.wing.it]

I'd put this one in the NO column, personally.

 

[barrosinc]

Light post.
I would pass

 

[leatherback]

I love the tree. Take a chainsaw, make a campfire! It smells wonderfully.

 

[sorce]

This looks quite left to its own devices which makes interiors bare and quite useless.

I'd be in for a free shovel dig if you weren't 7 hours away, just to see if it would live, see what the roots look like. People just don't understand the power of that knowledge.

Because there are some, closer to roads, some that get hacked back more regular, ones that started life rough or maybe had a dieback year that gives them holes, light inside, and more useable branching that that education could prove useful for.

But as per Will Hunting...
A $500 Tree Spade is the Harvard $ of that education, and you won't really learn shit.

The Shovel is the Library late fees.

But 7 hours is potentially a vehicle breakdown/accident which could put the cost of this tree into the tens of thousands...

And with that thought justifying spending $3-5k on something dope as fuck becomes real.

Sorce

 

[James W.]

I have to be out that way in April anyway, so I think if its still there I'll drag it back home and see what happens. I won't spend any extra money on it. He's got some hollies about the same age I definitely do want.

 

[M. Frary]

I'd leave that thing right where it's at.
Straight stovepipe trunk and it's an Alberta spruce.
2 things that dont do well for bonsai.

 

[James W.]

Everyone is right, it's not worth the effort. No potential. Difficult species. Too big. Too straight. All the foliage is at the ends of the branches. No nebari.
But I want it and it is still available, so . . .
When I was there in April I spaded around the tree several places.
Last week I spaded around the tree some more and removed less than 1/4 of the branches. You can hardly tell I trimmed it.
Maybe I can trim some more at the end of August and dig it in November. Or potentially prep it some more to dig at the end of August next year.

 

[rockm]

There is no potential for an eight foot tall formal upright bonsai there. You're talking about a garden tree, not bonsai.

Having worked with DAS before, I can tell you its frustrating and produces iffy results.

Digging this is a beginner's mistake. Size doesn't equal "nice material" Neither does a silhouette. Have you looked INSIDE that outline to interior branching. I bet its a mess of criss crossing branches that haven't been pruned in its entire life. "Trjimming" it won't get the job done. Major interior pruning with a had saw, or chain saw might get some of it accomplished...

This isn't to mention the root mass you will have to deal with once it's out of the ground, nor the soil you will have to come up with for its container. BTW, what are you going to put this in once it's out of the ground? If it survives and boils down to a bonsai, you gonna spring for the $1,000 + pot it will require?

 

[James W.]

There is no potential for an eight foot tall formal upright bonsai there. You're talking about a garden tree, not bonsai.

Having worked with DAS before, I can tell you its frustrating and produces iffy results.

Digging this is a beginner's mistake. Size doesn't equal "nice material" Neither does a silhouette. Have you looked INSIDE that outline to interior branching. I bet its a mess of criss crossing branches that haven't been pruned in its entire life. "Trjimming" it won't get the job done. Major interior pruning with a had saw, or chain saw might get some of it accomplished...

This isn't to mention the root mass you will have to deal with once it's out of the ground, nor the soil you will have to come up with for its container. BTW, what are you going to put this in once it's out of the ground? If it survives and boils down to a bonsai, you gonna spring for the $1,000 + pot it will require?

Yes, I know it is a terrible idea. Risk/reward analysis is negative, it WILL be a lot of work (and some money) with negligible chance (approaching zero) of a decent tree.
And it still may not get done. Or I might get it home and decide that the best thing to do is to let it grow in the yard. Worst case I learn a little bit about collecting a large tree.
To answer some of your points:
The trunk is about 10" at the base, by classic Japanese proportions the goal should be a tree 5 feet tall. I think the top 2 feet will go away. 6 feet tall would look good.
Yes, the interior is a mess. It is a ton of long, skinny branches with a little foliage at the tips. The largest branches are about 3/4" and 30" long. I removed less than 1/4 of them to begin letting a little light and air into the interior. DAS do back bud a little bit, but not very likely. It also splits into 2 trunks about 2/3 up. One of those would have to become a jin. Eventually I would need to reduce the branches to maybe 12 or 20.
The root ball will be 5 foot or less. Currently is growing in a raised bed 6 feet wide from the foundation of the house. I am hoping to reduce the footprint to about 4 feet in diameter before we dig it up.
Initially I will build a wooden box for it. 48" x 48" x 24" Filling a container that large with something approaching bonsai soil will be my biggest expense, but doable. And even if the tree just dies I will use the mix for something else.
If it ever becomes something worth seeing, I would be delighted to spend a couple thousand dollars on a pot. Until then it can live in wooden boxes. Final pot would be about 24" in diameter.

I am not arguing or trying convince you, obviously you know way more than I ever will. And pretty much EVERYONE agrees with you, this is a terrible plan. I should quit thinking about it. Saw it up and make a violin. Go home and play with my horrible little trees and leave the poor thing to die in peace. Maybe someday I will have a couple of trees decent enough to distract me from stupid projects and making so many beginner's mistakes.

 

[_#1_]

Learning to collect is always a good thing.

The question is, how will you unload and maneuver the cargo once you get home? 5' of rootball sounds like a nightmare...

If it was me, I would collect it this year.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

Go home and play with my horrible little trees

I think you meant to say go home and learn everything you can from the material you have, even if it isnt the best.

 

[Forsoothe!]

They don't back-bud. Now, if you got really, really lucky and stumbled across a Alberta Spruce Witches Broom like this...

That's a different story.

 

[sorce]

Some trees wanna live more than others.

If this is a good one you could make something out of it.

I'm still a go for it.

Sorce

 

[BonsaiFurLife]

Grafting can always be done later if it survives. If you absolutely have to, Id ask ole buddy owner to dig up with supervision for 50$ or so? That’s a lotta tree for a shovel. A tree this size and age, do some research. Aftercare is very important. Good luck whatever you do. I’d honestly prolly go for it if money and help was no issue. I’d plant it back in ground in shady area tho and baby it. Mites are an issue here.

 

[rockm]

Yes, I know it is a terrible idea. Risk/reward analysis is negative, it WILL be a lot of work (and some money) with negligible chance (approaching zero) of a decent tree.
And it still may not get done. Or I might get it home and decide that the best thing to do is to let it grow in the yard. Worst case I learn a little bit about collecting a large tree.
To answer some of your points:
The trunk is about 10" at the base, by classic Japanese proportions the goal should be a tree 5 feet tall. I think the top 2 feet will go away. 6 feet tall would look good.
Yes, the interior is a mess. It is a ton of long, skinny branches with a little foliage at the tips. The largest branches are about 3/4" and 30" long. I removed less than 1/4 of them to begin letting a little light and air into the interior. DAS do back bud a little bit, but not very likely. It also splits into 2 trunks about 2/3 up. One of those would have to become a jin. Eventually I would need to reduce the branches to maybe 12 or 20.
The root ball will be 5 foot or less. Currently is growing in a raised bed 6 feet wide from the foundation of the house. I am hoping to reduce the footprint to about 4 feet in diameter before we dig it up.
Initially I will build a wooden box for it. 48" x 48" x 24" Filling a container that large with something approaching bonsai soil will be my biggest expense, but doable. And even if the tree just dies I will use the mix for something else.
If it ever becomes something worth seeing, I would be delighted to spend a couple thousand dollars on a pot. Until then it can live in wooden boxes. Final pot would be about 24" in diameter.

I am not arguing or trying convince you, obviously you know way more than I ever will. And pretty much EVERYONE agrees with you, this is a terrible plan. I should quit thinking about it. Saw it up and make a violin. Go home and play with my horrible little trees and leave the poor thing to die in peace. Maybe someday I will have a couple of trees decent enough to distract me from stupid projects and making so many beginner's mistakes.

You asked for advice, but seem to be seeking justification because the tree has a large trunk--a large taperless, mostly uninteresting trunk...

Beyond the sheer size of this tree--Alberta spruce IS NOT really decent bonsai material even when it's of manageable size. I had a forest of them for 15 years. Worked those trees will all kinds of techniques. They responded slowly or not at all. They are extremely frustrating that is why there aren't many around. There are a few kicking around. I noticed Bill Valavanis posted one last year--grown out from nursery stock over a few decades by American bonsai pioneer Gerald Stowell.

A Few Bonsai for the US National Bonsai Exhibition Benefit Auction

A Benefit Auction will be held at the 2018 6thUS National Bonsai Exhibition to support the event. It will take place on Saturday, September 8, 2018 at 4pm, immediately after the last demonstration …

valavanisbonsaiblog.com

What I'm saying is, even if you get this out of the ground alive, you will be dealing with a species that requires a lot of effort and maintenance even on a small scale. (and FWIW, the tree's root mass is going to be a treat to collect, I'd bet any feeder roots won't be within the radius you've mentioned, even in a growing bed--conifers require feeder roots at collection. Digging trees this big always brings mostly unpleasant surprises with the roots)

Oh, you might want to keep your friend with the backhoe around at repotting time down the road. You're gonna need him/her because root pruning that beast if it survives will be a two or three person job. I know, most of my trees are large to very large--and I work with people who have extremely large bonsai. They require a lot of muscle and assistance...

Good luck