M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
When Ryan Kneels.
Most excellent Peter Tea blog post about summer work on Maples!
- Thread starter Adair M
- Start date
jmw_bonsai
Mame
I wonder if he has removed his two "side shoots"?
jmw_bonsai
Mame
If the elongation last longer than four hours seek medical attention!
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
papymandarin
Shohin
i have to admit i'm out of the competition at such a higher level of the debate lol
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Nothing to do an a Sat. so read this entire thing.
I laughed.......
All this back and fourth and not one picture of a finely crafted trident maple here to be found. Sounds like a lot of theory and "what if's" to me. Does anyone have a great trident bonsai that shows what has been done to make it better and the results of their argumentative statements.
People around here build reputations of bonsai knowledge by showing what can be done in progression threads and developing material from nothing to something. Is any one going to do that here?
I laughed.......
All this back and fourth and not one picture of a finely crafted trident maple here to be found. Sounds like a lot of theory and "what if's" to me. Does anyone have a great trident bonsai that shows what has been done to make it better and the results of their argumentative statements.
People around here build reputations of bonsai knowledge by showing what can be done in progression threads and developing material from nothing to something. Is any one going to do that here?
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I, being a nerd, would rather have data, meaning actual measurements of stem thicknesses through the season of cleaned stems versus uncleaned ones with the node count of each recorded. A total of 8 trees, 4 in each treatment might be sufficient.
One data point does not make a trend.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
True, but this thread has to do with Peter Tea, and blog post on a tree that is truly years along in development. All of Peter's blog posts came from Japan and the trees he was working with there. Many of his posts had to do with refinement techniques and how best to keep truly great bonsai from looking like an unpruned boxwood.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Depending on others data is a lazy and inefficient way of developing bonsai. Developing bonsai depends so much on logistics, growing season, husbandry, and a devotion to the hobby. Lacking in any of those points will never make good trees. Developing ones own techniques based on location is "the way" period.
papymandarin
Shohin
unfortunately ( or not) practionners dont have unlimited amounts of trees and tend to treat each as an individual, they don't grow their trees as standardized batches allowing quantitatives precise measurements in the hypothetical prospect they will have to prove something to someone on the net one day, do you? so no real demonstration is possible, for ANY technique actually, not only this one.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Mysticism = the way = tao?
We aren't talking about aesthetics. We are not debating whether Peter makes beautiful trees or not. He does.
We are arguing about a readily measurable claim that eliminating side shoots from a sacrifice slows/hastens the rate of thickening.
Now, everybody do it (make measurements and show your work) in their own location and until you have data STFU.
SAD.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You are missing the point. Peter Tea is the subject of this thread and Peter does not grow bonsai, he buys them. If you want trunk and branch building techniques you have to go to a source that does that sort of thing. Trunk and branch building per se is not done by the lengthening of shoots but by the energy in the shoot and what it does in the bottom two inches of connection from where the shoot emits. Keeping side branches or removing does nothing in the process of that action. The act of growing does. I can say that because I work on almost maple bonsai exclusively now days. I know cause I do it daily and I do have the data. Removal or keeping branches has no significant action to creating girth in the base of a branch. We don't build beautiful branches by elongation, we build them by creating segments and each segment increases in size due to the elongation of the leader. The length of the leader does not build a better branch by allowing it to grow longer, especially in maples. In fact elongation after about 4 inches from its point of connection is the only part that increases in size as it elongates. the elongation as it grows longer just stays the same with no noticable increase in girth.
On maples the way to build girth faster is to wire down the branches horizontal and wire the tip up. The horizontal part will increase dramaticaly faster than a vertical shoot.
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Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Pretend it is a trident maple -Ficus p.
year 1
year 3
Year 4 Sept. 2013 and application of 3 foot extension branch
1 inch deep pot
Nov. 2015
Work shift to branchlets - trunk at 3 inch
Now the fun, how to stop the trunk from expanding further
year 1
year 3
Year 4 Sept. 2013 and application of 3 foot extension branch
1 inch deep pot
Nov. 2015
Work shift to branchlets - trunk at 3 inch
Now the fun, how to stop the trunk from expanding further
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
As always Al, the truth. Thank you.
BuyBonsai - Sell Bonsai $$$$$$
Is the Blog for advertising ??????
Good Day
Anthony
BuyBonsai - Sell Bonsai $$$$$$
Is the Blog for advertising ??????
Good Day
Anthony
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Okay.
Here's a comic book for you read.
thread graft started 4 Mar 2016
A bit more than 5 months later, on 29 Sep 2016 (branch on the left is the spring thread graft)
What has happened is clearer a year later (6 Dec 2017)
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Lets pretend I'm dense...spell it out for me Son.
edit: we both know I'm not pretending
edit: we both know I'm not pretending
papymandarin
Shohin
mmm this is going nowhere, i can only be happy to have been curious enough to try something counterintuitive on some of my trees, and to be rewarded with improvements i could not have hope for by just letting them grow freely, from what i observed the previous when i did not know of this technique. And i'm just a small hobbyist, i have nothing to sale or gain. Just do your own experiments and have fun, i just can't understand the amount of people so vehemently refusing to shake a little their certitudes to maybe learn something new while that's exactly what make this hobby so attractive to me, you never stop to learn.
I agree with you.
I thought people would like to know how they “do it in Japan”. I don’t pretend to know all the science behind it. Frankly, I don’t really care. All I want to know is “what works”. (I don’t need to know why gravity works. I just know that it does.)
If Peter’s blog helps you, then great! If you want to take a different approach, have at it!
Anthony, Peter wrote his blog while he was an apprentice in Japan. While I cannot be absolutely sure of his intentions, I know him well enough to surmise a couple of ideas of his motivation.
1). Creating the blog was a good way for him to document the things he was learning and doing while in Japan.
2). The blog probably help him to “stay connected “ to friends and family here in the US. He was in a strange country, working long hours, very few days off, and had very limited contact with “Home”. Doing something like a blog probably helped him feel less isolated.
3). It was a good way to gather some “name recognition”. When his apprenticeship was over, he wanted to be able to “be in demand” to teach workshops, have clients to visit, and have a nursery where he could sell trees. A blog detailing advanced skills and techniques would open doors for him upon his return to the US.
4). And Peter was probably thinking he was doing a public service of sharing the knowhow he was obtaining. He loves bonsai, and wants more more people to know how to make good bonsai.
I have taken a workshop with Peter. He gave a lecture on how to develop deciduous trees. From scratch. (Not just by purchasing them as alluded by Smoke.). The process per Peter:
1). Build trunk. And nebari. Whether by seed,seedling, or raw stock that needs to be chopped, build the trunk and nebari first. If you want taper, or movement, or whatever, build the trunk and nebari. Don’t even THINK about branches. It doesn’t matter where they are, don’t let them getnmbig because you’re going remove them before they get large. Why? Because you want a nice clean minimally scarred trunk. You don’t want large wounds or big callouses. Once the trunk is built, THEN you can start developing branches. Tridents backbud pretty well. If they don’t backbud where you want/need then you’ll have to graft. The idea is to build primary branches with similar taper and movement as the trunk.
Once your primary branches are in place then can start making sub branches
Finally, after sub-branches might it be time to begin ramification.
Yes, it’s slow. Frustratingly slow.
When you get to the “refinement” phase, you will notice no more trunk thickness increase.
Seems like it has thickened a hell of a lot faster than Peter Tea's 2 metre long branches which look like a similar thickness to your palmatum branch. How anyone can hold that it won't thicken faster if you leave more on is beyond me. But maybe I'm just going insane?
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