Most excellent Peter Tea blog post about summer work on Maples!
- Thread starter Adair M
- Start date
papymandarin
Shohin
lol this picture shows the tree after completion of trimming/defoliating work, not the result, unfortunately there is no update on the tree progression. What is beyond me (to copy the expression of your post) is all the opposition come from people who never tried it, it's blind dismissal without any experience of it. All people who tried says it works (but what all these people are saying doesn't seem to matter while THEY are the ones with experience of it), we are still waiting for people who tried and had no results. It speaks much more about the ability of some people to put into question their certitudes than about the effectiveness of the technique.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I have been fiddling with this....
I have come to the conclusion that....
It depends!
First....I think its important to note that side branches on a sac in a wide canopy will shade out the tree...
I believe that is known, and...well..its a sacrifice...for the other foliage in some instances.
2...when are we taking side branches off?
A few of thousands of combinations ...
And remember...with thousands of dif trees...species...and individuals of species, there are a million possible outcomes!
When they are buds? Wax or wane?
When they are small branches? W or W.?
Big branches?
Leaves too or leave leaves?
Then it comes down to the individual tree for me....which...will then depend on one of thousands of possible health/weather/confusion/placement scenarios....
A sacrifice running into a shaded area may get thicker if just the tip tip is left.....
Or will it?
What if the maple is in shade shade and the sac is running to sun?
Shade?
Fugetaboutit...not even universities have enough space and time to make all these controls.
I remove the close side branches to keep the interior, or finished parts out of shade.
I can see how an extending tip only can lead to a thicker BRANCH..as I believe length = girth...which is good for base of branch thickness building...
But out of 8 sacs on my maple last year....
They all grew kinda different, one broke amd divided to 4. Some self divided.some with branches removed some not..blah...
No noticeable difs in thick at the base at all..
But here is the hidden kicker....
Where you are right...
I believe leaving all the foliage may not give you the VISUAL that is a thicker branch.
But that traffic WILL give you more healing on the trunk...more roots...more health...
The VISUAL is just harder to observe.
Sorce
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Thank You Sifu [ @Adair M ]
I am unsure of how to process all of this. I apologise if I have
in any way harmed M.r Tea's reputation.
Unfortunately, through a drawn Design, we can also trunk thicken
and add in the 6 branches.
As I have from time to time shown in the Defoliated Gmelina.
Which I believe, both you and Mr,Valavanis applied a - like - to.
I also understand I am not a Japanese Apprentice and therefore
will not be taken seriously.
It isn't a slow process as we are able to this in a year or less.
We tend to trunk thicken only to 3 inches and height of under
18 inches.
We started doing this back in the early 90's.
Still doing for refinement of technique.
I was going to drop out of this topic as it seems to be biting
it's own tail.
Thank you once again for taking to correct me.
Slow student.
Anthony
I am unsure of how to process all of this. I apologise if I have
in any way harmed M.r Tea's reputation.
Unfortunately, through a drawn Design, we can also trunk thicken
and add in the 6 branches.
As I have from time to time shown in the Defoliated Gmelina.
Which I believe, both you and Mr,Valavanis applied a - like - to.
I also understand I am not a Japanese Apprentice and therefore
will not be taken seriously.
It isn't a slow process as we are able to this in a year or less.
We tend to trunk thicken only to 3 inches and height of under
18 inches.
We started doing this back in the early 90's.
Still doing for refinement of technique.
I was going to drop out of this topic as it seems to be biting
it's own tail.
Thank you once again for taking to correct me.
Slow student.
Anthony
bonsai-ben
Mame
Cant help with gravity, but......
The Angle of the Dangle is equally proportionate to the Mass of the Ass
Lol. It does show the result. The lower two branches (mature bark) are at least 2 years old and still very thin.
No the outcome is always the same.
papymandarin
Shohin
no, the picture show the tree after the trimming/defoliating, not the subsequent effect it will produce at the end of the growing season, the fact this branch is still thin is the reason why he applied the technique to it, .... even i a non native english speaker understood it ....
KiwiPlantGuy
Omono
Hi papymandrin,
I have resisted the urge to comment on this as a newbie.
But this theory seems confused logic to say the least.
1. Did he use the branch extension to thicken the branch because of the auxin an elongating shoot produces?
2. Or does this enlongating branch need to be turned upward and grow past the apex’s leader to take over as leader and this will subsequently thicken the branch?
Seems like #2 would be a faster approach and both could be correct that they increase the girth either way?
Charles
papymandarin
Shohin
not sure if it's necessary or not, but as a rule, it's always helping to increase the apical tendency of what you want to grow/thicken, the differential pruining is basically doing that, increase even more the apical tendency of the main shoot by removing the others. The extremely long shoot you are obtaining requires anyway stalking at some point (particularly if you have a small garden lol), also prevents it to break (but it has to be a loose stalking, the whip has to be able to move, the mechanical stress at the attach of this unnaturally shaped branch being what stimulates the thickening process, but again it's just how i understand it, unlike what some are hoping for i didn't make a thesis about it, i just made it lol)
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
It would be my pleasure to read any articles, blog posts, magazine articles of Peter Teas work with developing maples from seeds and cuttings. I have not seen any of this before and had no idea he was developing material from such.
It takes a long time to develop material good enough for bonsai from seed and cuttings. The years needed for the chops, layers and grafting take up many years to look flawless.
I belonged to the Midori club when Peter started there along with Matt Chroust who ran BonsaiTALK. I have followed Peters rise thru bonsai along with the checks he recieved from GSBF while I was Scholarship Chair.
If this is the case I would also like to see if he sells any of this material to others. Since he has asked me where I get my material, I was just wondering...
It takes a long time to develop material good enough for bonsai from seed and cuttings. The years needed for the chops, layers and grafting take up many years to look flawless.
I belonged to the Midori club when Peter started there along with Matt Chroust who ran BonsaiTALK. I have followed Peters rise thru bonsai along with the checks he recieved from GSBF while I was Scholarship Chair.
If this is the case I would also like to see if he sells any of this material to others. Since he has asked me where I get my material, I was just wondering...
You can “grow” from starter plants, they don’t have to be cuttings and seeds.
I’m sure Peter appreciates you taking credit for his success because you approved his application for the scholarship. You should be happy for him! And the whole point of giving people scholarships is for them to go and learn new techniques and bring them back home to share with others.
D
Deleted member 21616
Guest
@Smoke have you thought about writing a book, about how you wrote the book on bonsai?
Jokes aside, in all honesty your preoccupation with insuring that your 'legacy' or achievements are known on this forum (among the people you seem to anyways hate so much?) is a recurring theme across many of your posts. A book (a biography) might help your purposes. I'd buy it!
Jokes aside, in all honesty your preoccupation with insuring that your 'legacy' or achievements are known on this forum (among the people you seem to anyways hate so much?) is a recurring theme across many of your posts. A book (a biography) might help your purposes. I'd buy it!
my nellie
Masterpiece
Did you have any response from Mr. Tea's part, may I ask?
D
Deleted member 21616
Guest
nothing yet
even if he does respond though, i don't know what his response would be worth.
All that he could ever observe is that after removing side shoots/leaves, his main branch grows and thickens. He would never be able to show that that same branch would have grown slower, at the same rate, or faster, had those side shoots/leaves been left on the branch. It is by definition impossible to make the comparison.
As soon as you're using two separate branches, or two separate trees to make the comparison there are immediately dozens if not hundreds of variables that make the study worthless.
You would have to try run parallel tests on hundreds of trees at the same time. And even then, it might be possible that one technique works better in some climates/waterings/regions/latitudes/sun exposures etc. while the other technique works better in other climates/waterings/regions/latitudes/sun exposures etc.
I personally think the entire comparison is ridiculous to begin with. If one technique had a significant advantage over the other technique it would be obvious and there would therefore be no need for discussion at all. But what we have are two techniques that are proven to get their jobs done at a very similar rate.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You mean that he bought?
my nellie
Masterpiece
Please, excuse the off topic... I cannot but ask @derek7745 : Would you like to share what was the reason for your signature quote from Homer's Odyssey?
It’s not impossible to get meaningful results from a study using paired contralateral branches (one as the experimental subject, the other as the control). Careful study design and selection of the appropriate statistical tests can overcome the variability. Similar kinds of studies are done in medicine all the time, quite successfully.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
It would be my pleasure to read any articles, blog posts, magazine articles of Peter Teas work with developing maples from starter plants. I have not seen any of this before and had no idea he was developing material from such.
It takes a long time to develop material good enough for bonsai from starter plants. The years needed for the chops, layers and grafting take up many years to look flawless.
[gloating removed]
If this is the case I would also like to see if he sells any of this material to others. Since he has asked me where I get my material, I was just wondering...
I have posted your text here for reference:
"I have taken a workshop with Peter. He gave a lecture on how to develop deciduous trees. From scratch. (Not just by purchasing them as alluded by Smoke.). The process per Peter:
1). Build trunk. And nebari. Whether by seed,seedling, or raw stock that needs to be chopped, build the trunk and nebari first. If you want taper, or movement, or whatever, build the trunk and nebari. Don’t even THINK about branches. It doesn’t matter where they are, don’t let them getnmbig because you’re going remove them before they get large. Why? Because you want a nice clean minimally scarred trunk. You don’t want large wounds or big callouses. Once the trunk is built, THEN you can start developing branches. Tridents backbud pretty well. If they don’t backbud where you want/need then you’ll have to graft. The idea is to build primary branches with similar taper and movement as the trunk.
Once your primary branches are in place then can start making sub branches
Finally, after sub-branches might it be time to begin ramification."
I am confused about a few things. You say in your reply from seeds and seedlings, and then raw stock? Is this raw stock purchased or is this material that grew randomly in the backyard. All I said was Peter buys trees. YOU, went out of your way to make sure that those reading this would understand that for some reason Peter does not buy trees? If that is not true then how does he do this work on trees that are not seeds and seedlings?
Is there a stigma associated with purchasing trees? I purchase them all the time. I don't have a problem with buying a tree and removing all the branches and building the tree from the ground up. Did you think you needed to protect Peter's reputation and get a little defensive?
I don't know Adair, your just fun to screw with. You make it easy.....Most of this forum just does this for fun...lighten up a little their just trees in pots....they have no feelings....
BTW how about posting up some deciduous progressions here for the forum to read. With your expertise on the subject you should have a huge portfolio on the subject. Lots of pictures of how to do it, trunk chopping and building branches. All the layering youv'e done to build bases on the trees you show. Grafting of branches on maples and the like. Your fancy of the Ebihara methods, surly your doing this stuff for your own trees.
It takes a lot to post up progressions and take all the photo's of ones methods over many years...like twenty or more for me. Surly with all the work you have done with the "great ones" from Japan, you could share some of your work here. Respect works both ways. I've done the work and shared it with this forum for 12 years, thats more than you or Peter combined ten times over here.
fig. 3
It takes a long time to develop material good enough for bonsai from starter plants. The years needed for the chops, layers and grafting take up many years to look flawless.
[gloating removed]
If this is the case I would also like to see if he sells any of this material to others. Since he has asked me where I get my material, I was just wondering...
I have posted your text here for reference:
"I have taken a workshop with Peter. He gave a lecture on how to develop deciduous trees. From scratch. (Not just by purchasing them as alluded by Smoke.). The process per Peter:
1). Build trunk. And nebari. Whether by seed,seedling, or raw stock that needs to be chopped, build the trunk and nebari first. If you want taper, or movement, or whatever, build the trunk and nebari. Don’t even THINK about branches. It doesn’t matter where they are, don’t let them getnmbig because you’re going remove them before they get large. Why? Because you want a nice clean minimally scarred trunk. You don’t want large wounds or big callouses. Once the trunk is built, THEN you can start developing branches. Tridents backbud pretty well. If they don’t backbud where you want/need then you’ll have to graft. The idea is to build primary branches with similar taper and movement as the trunk.
Once your primary branches are in place then can start making sub branches
Finally, after sub-branches might it be time to begin ramification."
I am confused about a few things. You say in your reply from seeds and seedlings, and then raw stock? Is this raw stock purchased or is this material that grew randomly in the backyard. All I said was Peter buys trees. YOU, went out of your way to make sure that those reading this would understand that for some reason Peter does not buy trees? If that is not true then how does he do this work on trees that are not seeds and seedlings?
Is there a stigma associated with purchasing trees? I purchase them all the time. I don't have a problem with buying a tree and removing all the branches and building the tree from the ground up. Did you think you needed to protect Peter's reputation and get a little defensive?
I don't know Adair, your just fun to screw with. You make it easy.....Most of this forum just does this for fun...lighten up a little their just trees in pots....they have no feelings....
BTW how about posting up some deciduous progressions here for the forum to read. With your expertise on the subject you should have a huge portfolio on the subject. Lots of pictures of how to do it, trunk chopping and building branches. All the layering youv'e done to build bases on the trees you show. Grafting of branches on maples and the like. Your fancy of the Ebihara methods, surly your doing this stuff for your own trees.
It takes a lot to post up progressions and take all the photo's of ones methods over many years...like twenty or more for me. Surly with all the work you have done with the "great ones" from Japan, you could share some of your work here. Respect works both ways. I've done the work and shared it with this forum for 12 years, thats more than you or Peter combined ten times over here.
fig. 3
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