Most Expensive Tree?

[Mark]

John,
You misinterpreted my rude remarks. They were NOT directed to Attila as you stated and he believed. They were directed to Yenling. Attila posted the cover of a book he said contained a photo of a PONDEROSA that sold for that much, he did not say the Bonsai on the cover, it was Yenling that made that assumption.
I have personal reasons for being uncomfortable with people asking questions about what trees are worth, or are sold for, especially when they have not taken the time to learn about trees.
After reading his follow up comments, I feel I over reacted to Yenlings questions and apologize to him.

Mark

 

[Mark]

What is important to understand is...
Some people look at Bonsai like a commodity, and diminish its real importance and value in doing so.
Is that you?

Mr. Holmes

 

[Attila Soos]

John,
You misinterpreted my rude remarks. They were NOT directed to Attila as you stated and he believed. They were directed to Yenling. Attila posted the cover of a book he said contained a photo of a PONDEROSA that sold for that much, he did not say the Bonsai on the cover, it was Yenling that made that assumption.

Ok, since this is a chain of misdirected assumptions, I also apologize for my hostility toward Mark. It was an honest reaction, since I was the one quoted in the questionable post and it was hard not to take is as a direct provocation.

 

[Attila Soos]

Here is the tree I was talking about. It is from Randy Clark's "Outstanding American Bonsai". I hope I don't break any copyright laws by showing this.

It says about the tree:

"This bonsai is one of the largest and probably oldest lliving specimen in the United States. It is a "shi zen" or natural dwarf specimen found growing at the 14,000 level of the Rocky Mountains near Roosevelt National Forest. Based on core specimens taken from dead trees near the area, this bonsai is estimated at more than 900 years old. The planting is valued at more than half a million dollars and was named "Higurashi-no-matsu" or "Sunset Vision" by the late bonsai artist Bob Kataoka of Denver, Colorado, who was instrumental in its collection and initial styling. This magnificent pine must be seen in person to be truly appreciated. It stands 48 in high and is planted in a brown 36 inch oval container especially made for it by the Matsushita To-en pottery works in Japan. It was discovered in 1983, carefully removed, and containerized over one year period. Although it has been in training for only three years, it already has the marks of a classic bonsai.
The artist: Dick Meleney, Denver, Colorado."

 

[Tachigi]

Thanks for the info Attila...interesting! The statements does spark other questions like, is it still alive. It would appear that the book was written in '87 so it would make it another 20 years older+/-. I would also be curious to know who did the appraisal.

As far as largest?...Not sure if that one will hold up anymore...Jason has some that might rival this beauty

Either way...thanks for taking the time...

 

[TheSteve]

Funny you should mention that Tom, I was mentally setting jason's "millenium" juniper next to this one.

 

[TheSteve]

Jason's juni is really a tree you have to see in person to truly comprehend.

 

[William N. Valavanis]

I believe that Dick Meledey's Ponderosa pine died about one year after that photo was taken. It really had a short life once it was taken from it's native habitat...

Bill

 

[Anonymous User]

That is very sad in many ways.



Will

 

[Walter Pall]

I believe that Dick Meledey's Ponderosa pine died about one year after that photo was taken. It really had a short life once it was taken from it's native habitat...

Bill

Dick Melony, from Colorado, who is unfortunately not longer with us, has told me in person that he got this tree from this old Japanese man in Denver who had it for decades in a pot. It was transported for the show where the pictures in Randy Clark's book were made and somehow during transport a few people carried this extremely heavy monster and they managed to drop it and the pot broke. He planted it into a pot again and it died. He mentioned that the tree was sent to the show mainly for the picture. What a sad way to kill a landmark bonsai. It was never worth 500,00, of course, it was invaluble, not for sale.

 

[Walter Pall]

It was Bob Katoka form Denver who apparently was a keen bonsaiist in Denver after WWII. When he died his widow gave the tree to Dick Melony. Bob Katoka seems to have been a very good gardener. He invented some techniques to make ponderosas backbud which are still in use in Colorado.

 

[Walter Pall]

from the RMBS newsletters:

Mr. Kataoka was a founding member of the
Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society. He died in
1986, but is honored by the RMBS through the
presentation of the Bob Kataoka Memorial
Award which is given to a rising bonsai artist at
their annual bonsai show at the Denver Botanic
Garden. His vision is kept alive in the privat garden
by his daughter Lily Uyeda who use the skills that he
taught her.


According to a long time friend Allan Hills,
one of the most important lessons Kataoka
imparted to him was how to make bonsai North
American. He was a guiding light for the
RMBS as the result of reading many of the
Japanese bonsai magazines and adapting the
methods to local native trees, such as ponderosa pines.

REMEMBERING MR. BOB KATAOKA
Bob Kataoka was one of the key contributors to The Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society (RMBS), which originated from
The Denver Bonsai Club. His bonsai philosophy was pure, that you should enjoy the essence of the tree and the effort of the
hobbyist, rather than look for faults. His reply to “what do you think?” was always “nice, very nice...”
Mr. Kataoka’s emphasis to RMBS was that he wanted us to be supportive of each other, instead of competing against
one another and did not want the society to have a “judged” show. Bob taught me to look at my bonsai etiquette, and
supported my quest to improve my own bonsai, which is noble and don’t try to improve others unless asked. I am very
grateful of Mr. Kataoka’s influence on my bonsai perspective.
With Gratitude,
Harold Sasaki – RMBS Honorary Life Member
2007

 

[Rick Moquin]

Rick,

Why is it important that you ask "Why is it important"?

Is the importance of the price unimportant to you? May be some people find it important to know how much they need to pay for a masterpiece....unless of course, they have so much money that it makes no difference to them whether they pay $100 or $100,000.

Getting ready to get slammed here, puts on bullet proof vest and flack jacket

It is unimportant as the majority of us who participate here can only salivate over these trees let alone ever afford one. There is an old and very true saying "If you have to ask what is it worth, then you can't afford it". Those that can are not seen here discussing it, they are doing it.

Now I am not saying that great material cannot be created into future masterpieces by practitioners, I am saying that to the majority of us these trees are out of our reach.

Besides we all know where I stand with bonsai so I am not going to rehash that portion.

IMHO, there is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much fixation on $$$$$$$$$$$ these days.

 

[greerhw]

2. How many trees/year go for over $10,000 in the U.S.?
Maybe 3/year in entire U.S.?

Remember this tree, it was 10,000, I don't know if it sold.If I could afford trees in that price range I would have bought it,

keep it green,
Harry

 

[rockm]

"It is unimportant as the majority of us who participate here can only salivate over these trees let alone ever afford one. There is an old and very true saying "If you have to ask what is it worth, then you can't afford it". Those that can are not seen here discussing it, they are doing it."

BullSH^& . climb down offa that high horse Understanding what's paid for what and WHY it's paid is a HUGE part of bonsai. Not to mention that it's really human nature to wonder what something is worth--actually ASKING the question is another matter. You can bet the price of that $100 or $50 stock tree you bought was set using SOME sort of yardstick--someone asking "how much is that?" or "how much should that be?" Such assessments, including high end trees, are set by folks watching what's selling...I'm kind of insulted when someone asks me "how much did that cost?" but I understand why they're asking.

Like it or not, bonsai IS a commodity. The thought that somehow we're producing precious priceless little handmade gems is a nice fantasy, but in the real world of bonsai (and especially in Japan) trees are bought and sold. It's how a market functions. Without a market, you would not have much "bonsai" anything--no tools, no pots, no decent bonsai-oriented stock...Art and commerce make an ugly couple, but they've been married for a very very long time.

The tree mentioned here was "VALUED" at $500,000. I've had this book since it was published back in the 1980's. If you want to see how bonsai in the US has progressed, look inside this book. Some of the trees are not "outstanding." That Ponderosa, however, was a stand out--collected Ponderosa pine of that size and quality were extremely hard to come by twenty years ago. The expertise to get them out alive existed only in four or five people in Colorado. The huge valuation doesn't mean it was necessarily worth the money or that it was for sale--it meant that the tree was exceptional and possibly not on the market.

For what it's worth, I think there are dozens of trees over $10,000 purchased in the US every year, probably many hundreds of trees sold for $5,000, thousands sold for $100-$1,000 and hundreds of thousands of trees sold for less than $40.

 

[ericN]

2. How many trees/year go for over $10,000 in the U.S.?
Maybe 3/year in entire U.S.?

Remember this tree, it was 10,000, I don't know if it sold.If I could afford trees in that price range I would have bought it,

keep it green,
Harry

I remember this tree and if I could afford it, I would have out bid you Harry!

Eric

 

[Attila Soos]

It was never worth 500,00, of course, it was invaluble, not for sale.

Thank you Bill and Walter for giving us an update on this tree. I always wondered what happened with it, since I figured that I would have seen it somewhere recently if it was still alive. It would be hard for such a magnificent tree to fly under the radar.

It is clear to me now that the $500,000 number is a symbolic figure, nobody would really pay that much here in the US for a bonsai. The reason why a wealthy person wouldn't is NOT because the tree is not worth that much. Such an ancient tree may in fact be priceless (or invaluable, as Walter put it), so the $500,000 is not an unreasonable price for a very wealthy person. But the main reason is the RISK involved in the investment. Nobody would take such a risk, to see the $500,000 evaporate into nothing just because someone made a stupid mistake. In Japan people would easily pay such an amount because there is a SYSTEM in place (a network of nurseries, bonsai artists, and technicians), just to protect these investments, and people have trust in this system. The reason they trust the system is that there is a good track record of keeping alive these trees for many generations.

Here in the US there is no such system, except a few designated individuals who can do the job. So the risk is just too high. Remember, that when one spends a few thousand dollars on a bonsai, that is called hobby spending. But when you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, that is not hobby spending anymore. That is called investment. The buyer is likely to love bonsai and be passionate about it, but spending such an amount is still considered investment for anybody in their right mind. Only an idiot would waste a million dollars on a hobby (which there are quite a few, of course). So, in order for the Americans to invest large amounts into bonsai, there must be a better system in place to protect their investment.

 

[greerhw]

For what it's worth, I think there are dozens of trees over $10,000 purchased in the US every year, probably many hundreds of trees sold for $5,000, thousands sold for $100-$1,000 and hundreds of thousands of trees sold for less than $40.[/QUOTE]


Ya think, it would have to be those cats on the west coast or east coast with all the money, cause it ain't happening here in Oklahoma, I can assure you.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Attila Soos]

That is very sad in many ways.

Will

I have to echo that, it is shockingly sad to me to lose this masterpiece of nature in such a trivial manner. Just imagine the heartbreak of the people involved in its care.

 

[Attila Soos]

from the RMBS newsletters:

Mr. Kataoka was a founding member of the
Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society. He died in
1986, but is honored by the RMBS through the
presentation of the Bob Kataoka Memorial
Award which is given to a rising bonsai artist at
their annual bonsai show at the Denver Botanic
Garden. His vision is kept alive in the privat garden
by his daughter Lily Uyeda who use the skills that he
taught her.


According to a long time friend Allan Hills,
one of the most important lessons Kataoka
imparted to him was how to make bonsai North
American. He was a guiding light for the
RMBS as the result of reading many of the
Japanese bonsai magazines and adapting the
methods to local native trees, such as ponderosa pines.

REMEMBERING MR. BOB KATAOKA
Bob Kataoka was one of the key contributors to The Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society (RMBS), which originated from
The Denver Bonsai Club. His bonsai philosophy was pure, that you should enjoy the essence of the tree and the effort of the
hobbyist, rather than look for faults. His reply to “what do you think?” was always “nice, very nice...”
Mr. Kataoka’s emphasis to RMBS was that he wanted us to be supportive of each other, instead of competing against
one another and did not want the society to have a “judged” show. Bob taught me to look at my bonsai etiquette, and
supported my quest to improve my own bonsai, which is noble and don’t try to improve others unless asked. I am very
grateful of Mr. Kataoka’s influence on my bonsai perspective.
With Gratitude,
Harold Sasaki – RMBS Honorary Life Member
2007

Thanks again Walter for remembering a true bonsai pioneer in this country.