Most Expensive Tree?

rockm

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"The intention was to point out that those who are more concerned with the price or the monetary value of a Bonsai than the Bonsai itself, maybe, are missing the point. For me, its about the tree. If you think differently, thats fine, I have no desire to change your mind."

Well, of course it's about the tree to you. You're not selling them. You're buying them. You are a consumer. Without those who DO care about the monetary value of your tree, you wouldn't have the tree...Oh, one more thing--did you consider the price of a tree before you bought it, or do you collect all of your material? If you didn't buy a tree because you thought the price was too high, then you have put price above the tree...

I'm not really trying to be an ass, but the business of bonsai is important. Bonsai businessmen are not missing the point. They mostly eke out a living not making much money (outside of Japan), selling bonsai.
 
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irene_b

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"The intention was to point out that those who are more concerned with the price or the monetary value of a Bonsai than the Bonsai itself, maybe, are missing the point. For me, its about the tree. If you think differently, thats fine, I have no desire to change your mind."

Well, of course it's about the tree to you. You're not selling them. You're buying them. You are a consumer. Without those who DO care about the monetary value of your tree, you wouldn't have the tree...Oh, one more thing--did you consider the price of a tree before you bought it, or do you collect all of your material? If you didn't buy a tree because you thought the price was too high, then you have put price above the tree...

I'm not really trying to be an ass, but the business of bonsai is important. Bonsai businessmen are not missing the point. They mostly eke out a living not making much money (outside of Japan), selling bonsai.


I have to agree with you Mark.
I think it was Al who said that if you want to make a small fortune with Bonsai you have to start with a Large One...Very True.. As a Practioner of Bonsai and as a owner who sells trees, I sure as hell was not in it for the money, and most times just break even...I love the Wee Trees and the journey from stock to finished is what it's all about...
Irene
 

Attila Soos

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Outside of handful of people like Martin Brussels and the like. Most full time, dyed in the wool, bonsai business owners, because of their passion for bonsai are in this business. It certainly is not for the money.
.................

So based on our small niche group, just how does anyone figure that bonsai business men are in it for the money? All the ones I know gave up a lucrative job (relativly speaking) to emerce themselves in this art form to further their own art and to help others excel in theirs while trying to pay the bills.

If you don't believe me try working a local Bonsai convention or show. Then do the math of what your average sale was. Then deduct your expenses...the net should show that your not in this business to become J. Paul Getty.

Yes, that is also what I've seen, that most bonsai business owners are in it for the passion. And I agree that someone wouldn't leave a lucrative business venture in exchange for a bonsai business, in the hope that he will make more money. It is very hard to make a living from bonsai.

But this was not my point. My point was that the IDEA of bonsai as a strictly business venture seems repugnant to many bonsaist, as if bonsai should NEVER be viewed as a business commodity. This view is completely baseless, since anybody with the slightest knowledge of history knows that without business and commerce, we would still be in the Stone Age.

In the case of bonsai, here is what often happens. This is not hypothetical, but real.
A bonsai hobbyist, who is really involved in the art over a long period of time, ends up with a large number of trees. Maintaining them becomes a burden, so the man needs to move some of them out of his property. Also, he loves the thrill to collect yamadori and create new bonsai all the time. This requires that he moves some of the older trees out of his collection, in someone else's care. Some of the trees are very good bonsai, and he decides to sell them, since he could very well use the money. So he becomes a vendor at a convention.

This is how a hobby can become a small business, especially when the person is of independent means, and is semi-retired.

In this case, the person "wears two hats". One is the bonsai hobbyist's hat, and when he is actively involved in the hobby, it is all about the tree. He loves his trees and almost treats them as revered persons.

The second "hat" he wears, is the "businessman hat". When he spends 10 hours at a stand, selling his trees, it is all about money. If it wasn't, he wouldn't be standing there: he would be in his backyard, working on his trees. When he is selling, it is strictly a business transaction, for money, and nothing else. It is about cost, and expenses, and valuing the tree as a commodity, taking into consideration the going market value of similar trees in your area. There is nothing spiritual and poetic about selling a tree, it is simply money exchanging hands. It may be sad sometimes, since we still love those trees, and we want to know that they will be taken good care of, but it may also be a source of pride, since someone is paying good money for our work. But this sentimental side is rather a burden than a necessity. And we are well aware that some of our trees are expensive commodities, others are cheap, so we sell them accordingly.

After you have sold your trees and on your way home stop at the bank to deposit your well-earned money, you go home and enjoy hour passion again. Business is over, you made some room for future trees, and it is all about the tree again.

So the love of bonsai, and the business for money mentality is in all of us, side by side, in the same person. We need both, because we are of limited means and limitee space. Denying it is childish and shortsighted, out of touch with reality.
 
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cquinn

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Yes, that is also what I've seen, that most bonsai business owners are in it for the passion. And I agree that someone wouldn't leave a lucrative business venture in exchange for a bonsai business, in the hope that he will make more money. It is very hard to make a living from bonsai.

But this was not my point. My point was that the IDEA of bonsai as a strictly business venture seems repugnant to many bonsaist, as if bonsai should NEVER be viewed as a business commodity. This view is completely baseless, since anybody with the slightest knowledge of history knows that without business and commerce, we would still be in the Stone Age.

In the case of bonsai, here is what often happens. This is not hypothetical, but real.
A bonsai hobbyist, who is really involved in the art over a long period of time, ends up with a large number of trees. Maintaining them becomes a burden, so the man needs to move some of them out of his property. Also, he loves the thrill to collect yamadori and create new bonsai all the time. This requires that he moves some of the older trees out of his collection, in someone else's care. Some of the trees are very good bonsai, and he decides to sell them, since he could very well use the money. So he becomes a vendor at a convention.

This is how a hobby can become a small business, especially when the person is of independent means, and is semi-retired.

In this case, the person "wears two hats". One is the bonsai hobbyist's hat, and when he is actively involved in the hobby, it is all about the tree. He loves his trees and almost treats them as revered persons.

The second "hat" he wears, is the "businessman hat". When he spends 10 hours at a stand, selling his trees, it is all about money. If it wasn't, he wouldn't be standing there: he would be in his backyard, working on his trees. When he is selling, it is strictly a business transaction, for money, and nothing else. It is about cost, and expenses, and valuing the tree as a commodity, taking into consideration the going market value of similar trees in your area. There is nothing spiritual and poetic about selling a tree, it is simply money exchanging hands. It may be sad sometimes, since we still love those trees, and we want to know that they will be taken good care of, but it may also be a source of pride, since someone is paying good money for our work. But this sentimental side is rather a burden than a necessity. And we are well aware that some of our trees are expensive commodities, others are cheap, so we sell them accordingly.

After you have sold your trees and on your way home stop at the bank to deposit your well-earned money, you go home and enjoy hour passion again. Business is over, you made some room for future trees, and it is all about the tree again.

So the love of bonsai, and the business for money mentality is in all of us, side by side, in the same person. We need both, because we are of limited means and limitee space. Denying it is childish and shortsighted, out of touch with reality.

And the persons who bought trees, take them home and it is all about the trees again. Both parties are sitting in their gardens, and it is all about the trees again.
 

greerhw

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What good is money if you can't use it to buy something you want or need, bonsai fits both of those , by the way.......:)

keep it green,
Harry
 

Rick Moquin

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"The intention was to point out that those who are more concerned with the price or the monetary value of a Bonsai than the Bonsai itself, maybe, are missing the point. For me, its about the tree. If you think differently, thats fine, I have no desire to change your mind."

... and that in a nutshell is what I grasped by the original #1 post. However, I am not one who can express with such eloquence.

Notwithstanding everything else that was mentioned wrt the business end of things (which we need). It's the fixation on the monetary value that we do not need.
 

dmeleney

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My dad, Dick Meleney, made his lifetime find, "Sunset", after 40 or so years of wandering the wild from Colorado to California. His friends teamed with him to extract and eventually pot, design, and train the tree. I suspect it died from too much TLC as much as anything else. As for the valuation, dad had a proclivity for storytelling, and certainly pulled that value out of thin air. He never had need of money, so I'm sure he never considered selling the tree. He did regret, at least slightly, that he didn't leave its care to an expert like Bob or Harold. He had a lot of fun with bonsai over the 60+years that it was his hobby. When he died, in 2007, we scattered his ashes near the site where he found Sunset.
 

Shimpaku

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Even though 5 years have past, I am sorry for the loss of your father. That means the tree was priceless. Nice sentiment in spreading his ashes at the site of the find. A true legacy and thanks for sharing.
 

jkd2572

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A lot of trees are sold in the us for 80,000 to 150,000 every year here. I know of 10 this year. Imports that and have been bought oversees before they sit in quarantine here for a couple of years untill the owner finally gets them. They then pay people to keep them for them at their nursery. They then rotate this trees at Thier residence..... They own them and hardly ever see their entire collection.
 

dick benbow

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As someone who is into many Japanese hobbies, the same type of questions and responses appear on the Koi (Colored carp) chatlines. Most of the fish that compete in shows here in washington state, average around 10-12 grand to be competitive for a grand champion crown. down in California you can easily quadruple that amount. In japan, Grand Champions in the national competition have gone for millions.
Whether bonsai or Koi, dealers are often limited to stocking those subjects within their customer base's budget. Having any amount of expensive stock sitting and not turning over is not condusive to good business. My point being you don't see many, very expensive trees at local bonsai shops because the traffic does not merit it.
In either hobby I love to see high quality expensive representatives in competition. It's how
aspiring competitors gauge what is possible. but in both cases I'm not overly impressed with amounts paid for aquistion, but the obvious signs that the living art is well cared for and well presented. back to the "passion" of the participant.
In japan, both with trees and Koi, the largest percentage are cared for by professionals, while the owner shows up and collects the prizes. I'm happy to see in other countries, especially here in America, the majority are cared for by the owner and directly reflect their own effort and ability.
Over the years, I've noticed to the detriment of both hobbies, hyping the prices paid for trees or fish tend to encourage thieves. Because they know nothing of how to care for them, they often are killed or ruined in the experience. At the last event that i docened, I was asked by a young scruffy looking man, what the value of the trees on exhibit were. My reply was " I don't know", "maybe you could ask the owners".....:)
 

fore

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That is really sad to hear! And such a terrible way to die, dropped while in for a picture. That was truly a special tree!
 

JudyB

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My dad, Dick Meleney, made his lifetime find, "Sunset", after 40 or so years of wandering the wild from Colorado to California. His friends teamed with him to extract and eventually pot, design, and train the tree. I suspect it died from too much TLC as much as anything else. As for the valuation, dad had a proclivity for storytelling, and certainly pulled that value out of thin air. He never had need of money, so I'm sure he never considered selling the tree. He did regret, at least slightly, that he didn't leave its care to an expert like Bob or Harold. He had a lot of fun with bonsai over the 60+years that it was his hobby. When he died, in 2007, we scattered his ashes near the site where he found Sunset.

Dmeleney,
Thank you for sharing that story with us. Touching, and heartwarming to be sure.
 

edprocoat

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As in any collectible item the actual value of it is contingent on the desire of the collector to spend that money. That said I would gladly pay $100,000 MMD on a great Bonsai, that of course is Monopoly Money Dollars! :)

ed
 

J1LSantana

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pandacular

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Dick Melony, from Colorado, who is unfortunately not longer with us, has told me in person that he got this tree from this old Japanese man in Denver who had it for decades in a pot. It was transported for the show where the pictures in Randy Clark's book were made and somehow during transport a few people carried this extremely heavy monster and they managed to drop it and the pot broke. He planted it into a pot again and it died. He mentioned that the tree was sent to the show mainly for the picture. What a sad way to kill a landmark bonsai. It was never worth 500,00, of course, it was invaluble, not for sale.
Very interesting history on this tree. I got a copy of the book mentioned in this thread for free from a closing bookstore, and was curious about this breathtaking pine. It was still rather raw in the photo, only 4 years out of collection, so I was hoping to find some more recent photos. Alas, but glad to hear the tale in full.

Actually, underdeveloped trees is one of interesting themes of this 1987 book, Outstanding American Bonsai by Randy Clark and Peter Voynovich. I don’t even just mean that they’re not great—some are, but many wouldn’t be accepted into a large club show these days—but mostly that many have been in training for a very short period of time, many in the 3-6 year time range! This book is however a very interesting historical document however, and a great primer on some of those who have gone before us.
My dad, Dick Meleney, made his lifetime find, "Sunset", after 40 or so years of wandering the wild from Colorado to California. His friends teamed with him to extract and eventually pot, design, and train the tree. I suspect it died from too much TLC as much as anything else. As for the valuation, dad had a proclivity for storytelling, and certainly pulled that value out of thin air. He never had need of money, so I'm sure he never considered selling the tree. He did regret, at least slightly, that he didn't leave its care to an expert like Bob or Harold. He had a lot of fun with bonsai over the 60+years that it was his hobby. When he died, in 2007, we scattered his ashes near the site where he found Sunset.
Thank you for sharing about your father.
 
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