Multi Air Layering of A.palmatum

[Fred]

Hi Folks

I have a tall A.palmatum which I want to take a number of layers off.

Can I take more than one layer at a time or do I need to do one at a time?

I would appreciate some advice on where to layer this tree.

I have attached two photos (front and back).


View attachment 26609View attachment 26610

Fred

 

[Poink88]

You can do multiple air layer at a time...provided each one have enough foliage above it to induce rooting.

Needless to say, you have to do it later (in spring). I personally would do it after the initial leaves have hardened.

Good luck!

 

[bonsaibp]

You can do multiple layers at one time provided they are not in line with each other. In other words you could do any number of individual branches before the trunk, but only one place at a time on a single trunk or branch.

 

[0soyoung]

You can do multiple layers at one time provided they are not in line with each other. In other words you could do any number of individual branches before the trunk, but only one place at a time on a single trunk or branch.

Bunk! Dario has it right.

 

[Smoke]

You can do multiple layers at one time provided they are not in line with each other. In other words you could do any number of individual branches before the trunk, but only one place at a time on a single trunk or branch.

Why can't you do two in line on one trunk?

 

[bonsaibp]

The layer beneath phloem is called the xylem; it transports water and mineral nutrients from the roots and soil up to the leafy parts of the tree. Removing the bark, cambium, and phloem prevents carbohydrates and photosynthates from flowing down the trunk. It still allows water and mineral nutrients to flow upward to the leaves via the channels in the xylem, thus keeping the leafy portions of the tree from drying out and maintaining them with an adequate supply of nutrients.

 

[gergwebber]

You can do multiple layers at one time provided they are not in line with each other. In other words you could do any number of individual branches before the trunk, but only one place at a time on a single trunk or branch.

how about this?:

 

[bonsaibp]

how about this?:View attachment 26628

from what I was taught and my experience having done hundreds of air layers that doesn't work. While in theory it should work the reality is that the upper layer doesn't get enough nutrients etc. to keep it strong enough to put out roots. I don't know of anyone who's ever had success that way and yes I have tried. I could be proven wrong won't be the first time but this is my experience.

 

[0soyoung]

from what I was taught and my experience having done hundreds of air layers that doesn't work. While in theory it should work the reality is that the upper layer doesn't get enough nutrients etc. to keep it strong enough to put out roots. I don't know of anyone who's ever had success that way and yes I have tried. I could be proven wrong won't be the first time but this is my experience.

So, if I were to air-layer the main trunk and also air-layer a branch or some of the branches, you are saying that no roots will form at the branch girdles - right? Please explain more about what "doesn't work" because, on the surface, what you are saying makes no sense.

One starts with a branch or stem that the tree supported. Specifically the xylem supplied the water and nutrients required for that branch to survive and grow. This is unchanged by air-layer girdles, unless one chops away a bunch of the xylem in making the girdles - is this why it doesn't work? There is an abundant amount of scholarly research that repeatedly demonstrates that the induction of adventitious roots is a process driven by auxin and sugars supplied by the foliage.

There is also a well known effect of ontological age or its opposite, "juvenility". Specifically, adventitious rooting becomes increasingly difficult farther away from the ground (nearer the branch tips) and with age of the tree. Would it be reasonable to conclude that your upper layers would not have generated roots anyway (i.e., even if there was no lower girdle)? Might this explain your experience?

 

[gergwebber]

on the surface, what you are saying makes no sense.

Pretty sure when our trees get together on the bench for a beer after a hard days respiratin' humans making no sense is a key topic of debate

 

[bonsaibp]

So, if I were to air-layer the main trunk and also air-layer a branch or some of the branches, you are saying that no roots will form at the branch girdles - right? Please explain more about what "doesn't work" because, on the surface, what you are saying makes no sense.

One starts with a branch or stem that the tree supported. Specifically the xylem supplied the water and nutrients required for that branch to survive and grow. This is unchanged by air-layer girdles, unless one chops away a bunch of the xylem in making the girdles - is this why it doesn't work? There is an abundant amount of scholarly research that repeatedly demonstrates that the induction of adventitious roots is a process driven by auxin and sugars supplied by the foliage.

There is also a well known effect of ontological age or its opposite, "juvenility". Specifically, adventitious rooting becomes increasingly difficult farther away from the ground (nearer the branch tips) and with age of the tree. Would it be reasonable to conclude that your upper layers would not have generated roots anyway (i.e., even if there was no lower girdle)? Might this explain your experience?

I'm not aruging the science- your right that it shouldn't make sense but my experience tells me otherwise. I'd be happy to have you prove me wrong- try some in line layers in the spring and maybe you'll have better luck then I did. Like I said I don't know anyone who does this successfully, I do know others who have tried though, but like I said I've been proven wrong before.

 

[0soyoung]

I'm not aruging the science- your right that it shouldn't make sense but my experience tells me otherwise. I'd be happy to have you prove me wrong- try some in line layers in the spring and maybe you'll have better luck then I did. Like I said I don't know anyone who does this successfully, I do know others who have tried though, but like I said I've been proven wrong before.

But I am wanting is for you to tell us more than it "doesn't work". Since you've done the work, you must have some recollections. Please describe some specifics so that we might learn something from your experience. I've successfully done this on young Acer Palmatums. The two serial girdles were widely separated (i.e., 3-4 ft branches, one girdle near the trunk and the other about mid-way to the tip) Your experience is different, but you haven't told us any specifics from which we might learn why.


... just asking
... just wanting to learn

BTW, there are things (some of which are bizzarre) that don't have explanations (yet). My favorite (which I just stumbled across a few weeks ago) is that one can install a girdle (make an air-layer) on an angiosperm stem and some time later hard prune the branch above the layer-girdle. Amazingly, buds below the girdle will sprout. Back-budding is usually explained by the collapse of the auxin flow, but the axin flow stops at the girdle. So, how does the branch below the girdle "know" about what went on above it? No one knows the answer = frontier of horticultural research. I've got to try this for myself next season! This is fun stuff!!

 

[bonsaibp]

I can't tell you why it doesn't work, though I suspect that the flow gets disrupted somewhat from the roots up at the girddling site. Other then than your guess is as good as any.

 

[Smoke]

BTW, there are things (some of which are bizzarre) that don't have explanations (yet). My favorite (which I just stumbled across a few weeks ago) is that one can install a girdle (make an air-layer) on an angiosperm stem and some time later hard prune the branch above the layer-girdle. Amazingly, buds below the girdle will sprout. Back-budding is usually explained by the collapse of the auxin flow, but the axin flow stops at the girdle. So, how does the branch below the girdle "know" about what went on above it? No one knows the answer = frontier of horticultural research. I've got to try this for myself next season! This is fun stuff!!

Budding below a girdle is common and normal. The sugar machine has been disrupted so it makes new sprouts below the girdle to continue the manufacture of leaves in it's compartment.

This is usually more apparent on a tree being top removed, meaning nothing below the girdle but trunk. Higher on a trunk with branches below the girdle, backbudding is not noticed as much.

Simply a matter of survival.

 

[small trees]

Budding below a girdle is common and normal. The sugar machine has been disrupted so it makes new sprouts below the girdle to continue the manufacture of leaves in it's compartment.

This is usually more apparent on a tree being top removed, meaning nothing below the girdle but trunk. Higher on a trunk with branches below the girdle, backbudding is not noticed as much.

Simply a matter of survival.

What if there are no buds below the girdle? Will it produce buds or will the trunk below the girdle simply die? I am thinking from the angle of growing stock and cutting it down for bonsai.

 

[0soyoung]

Budding below a girdle is common and normal. The sugar machine has been disrupted so it makes new sprouts below the girdle to continue the manufacture of leaves in it's compartment.

This is usually more apparent on a tree being top removed, meaning nothing below the girdle but trunk. Higher on a trunk with branches below the girdle, backbudding is not noticed as much.

Simply a matter of survival.

Yes, yes, I agree. I use this back-budding response as confirmation that the girdle hasn't bridged. It is entirely normal, as you say. It has been explained by there no longer being an auxin flow below the girdle so the cytokins in the xylem sap induce bud release. What this paper indicated might be stated as: first let this girdle induced back budding happen; then prune the branch tip; another round of back budding will occur below the girdle, as though the girdle wasn' t there. In other words, the loss of the meristem isn't communicated by auxin (there is no auxin flow across the girdle) as has been supposed.

At this point I regret bringing it up just about as much as I regret getting on bonsaibp's case about "doesn't work". But I was over stimulated by thoughts there might be an interaction between serial girdles when they are installed in a certain order or when there are three or more in series. Of course, no layer will work (in one season) if there is insufficient foliage above the girdle to supply the necessary IAA and sugar to grow adventitious roots. I am still convinced there is nothing more to it than that, in practical terms.

 

[Smoke]

What if there are no buds below the girdle? Will it produce buds or will the trunk below the girdle simply die? I am thinking from the angle of growing stock and cutting it down for bonsai.

I have learned with over 30 years, 12 years of specifically working with tridents, that any project must be well thought out before jumping the gun.

I have found that a super hard cut back just before hardening off in spring will stimulate new budding all over the trunk of many species.

Then, It is time to make the layer cuts when there are buds on the trunk that are known to be viable. Layer should be started in early March anyway, when frosts are a thing of the past. Course, thats Feb. for me !

Many species will bud below a girdle with no buds present at the time of taking the layer but it is not reliable. Especially on trunks over 1/2 inch in diameter. I have taken many ground layers off of trees with poor bases, (tridents and pyracantha) (both bullet proof) and never had the salvaged base bud out.

The only reliable plant that will shoot out of salvaged base from a low trunk ground layer is an elm. Of course elms can be made from root prunings so this is not really a stretch.

Pomagranite and olive will also bud from base stock or simply saw a portion off a large tree and root it in wet sand.

 

[Smoke]

I must also state that I practise pre budding on a trunk in preperation for dead heading as in a large trunk chop. Even then with good strong growing viable buds on the trunk is no assurance that a dead head chop on a two and a half inch trident will live.

Go on....Ask me how I know.....


I will have a huge air layer starting in about 120 days. A good three inch layer. Gonna take the top 5 inches off the top of this puppy!