My 1st 2 Layers not rooted enough now what?

[Japonicus]

Wilsons Pink a dwarf, and a shirasawanum Autumn Moon.

What happens to the roots and girdle during Winter if we don't sever?
This is my 1st attempt, and did get some stress die off, but also got new growth thereafter this Summer.
I'm using this silly rooter pots, and the label never would stay on, so the Sun was my issue I figure.

Will the layered branch have to be re-girdled come Spring or will it die off over Winter?

 

[0soyoung]

If you have some adventitious roots, they are just like the mother tree roots but just sitting up there in the air. If they get too cold, they die. Then next season the whole process starts over next spring - auxin from the leaves and active buds accumulates, causes cambium cells to morph into root tissue, and grow roots, maybe enough this time. If the adventitious roots grown this year don't get killed, they will grow along with a few more next spring after the foliage has hardened and you'll be able to harvest them earlier in the growing season.

So, do what you can to insulate the adventitious roots you've got, make sure they are moist (for obvious reasons plus the fact that water has a huge specific heat, not to mention heat of crystallization, that will help the roots to not experience the coldest of the cold every night/dawn).

In principle, you needn't do anything more, but shit happens. Next spring you may want to clean the girdle so that you can be confident that there is not and will not be any bridging of the girdle.


Now go finish off that egg nog.

 

[Cable]

The good news is, layer roots for layers still attached are supposedly more winter hardy.

 

[Japonicus]

If you have some adventitious roots, they are just like the mother tree roots but just sitting up there in the air. If they get too cold, they die. Then next season the whole process starts over next spring - auxin from the leaves and active buds accumulates, causes cambium cells to morph into root tissue, and grow roots, maybe enough this time. If the adventitious roots grown this year don't get killed, they will grow along with a few more next spring after the foliage has hardened and you'll be able to harvest them earlier in the growing season.

So, do what you can to insulate the adventitious roots you've got, make sure they are moist (for obvious reasons plus the fact that water has a huge specific heat, not to mention heat of crystallization, that will help the roots to not experience the coldest of the cold every night/dawn).

In principle, you needn't do anything more, but shit happens. Next spring you may want to clean the girdle so that you can be confident that there is not and will not be any bridging of the girdle.


Now go finish off that egg nog.

Ok the cambium layer being cleaned up in Spring I guess was a big concern
assuming the new roots would die. I mean I've read a few threads before on it - start over-
but wasn't sure where to go come Springtime. I would like to remove the cups
and bonsai soil within and check what's what, but I suspect that should wait till Spring?

The biggest problem I've had with these Rooter Pots, is movement. They move, twist, tilt, slide up/down
and that just has to wreak havoc with the roots, even more so with grit.
The lids do not remain well seated for me either, makes it dry out faster.
If you lift a lid to water, this causes the cup yet again to move about.

 

[Japonicus]

The good news is, layer roots for layers still attached are supposedly more winter hardy.

Is that right? That's news to me, and quite honestly, this is the 1st visit I've made to the maple
part of the forum in a few months. I've never heard that before Cable.

 

[Cable]

Is that right? That's news to me, and quite honestly, this is the 1st visit I've made to the maple
part of the forum in a few months. I've never heard that before Cable.

i had heard it several times and then Ryan Neil mentioned it in one of his videos. His explanation was that the roots above the layer were getting extra loaded with sugars and starches (because they had nowhere else to go) which increased their resistance to cold damage.

 

[0soyoung]

I suspect that should wait till Spring?

I think you can do this most any time (except if it is frozen solid) - just be careful as those fleshy roots are fragile.

The biggest problem I've had with these Rooter Pots, is movement. They move, twist, tilt, slide up/down
and that just has to wreak havoc with the roots, even more so with grit.
The lids do not remain well seated for me either, makes it dry out faster.
If you lift a lid to water, this causes the cup yet again to move about.

I've never used them. I often just split a plastic nursery pot and wrap it around the stem and support it with 1, 2, or 3 screws driven into the stem just below the pot. I generally remove that portion of the stem (with the screws) when I harvest the layer, so there is no reason to care about the screw holes. The pot definitely won't slide down the stem. I often use bonsai substrate in this circumstance, using a little sphagnum to 'seal' the pot to the stem. Generally, I just water the layer-pot daily when I water the tree, but when I can't, I wrap the works with polyethylene sheeting of some kind (in 4-6 weeks, water via a small opening).

 

[0soyoung]

i had heard it several times and then Ryan Neil mentioned it in one of his videos. His explanation was that the roots above the layer were getting extra loaded with sugars and starches (because they had nowhere else to go) which increased their resistance to cold damage.

Well, that's true for all roots, isn't it?

 

[Shibui]

I've found that layers can survive with very few roots, especially when dormant. I've had to remove some with little more than callus and they have just powered away the following spring. Come spring the tree will be programmed to grow roots really quick. Over here in a mild climate roots will slowly form during winter. After all, maples can grow from cuttings with no roots at all so a layer with some roots is streets ahead.

How valuable is the layered branch? Worth taking a chance? Why not remove it now, pot up and put it in your normal maple wintering area and let us know the results.

 

[Cable]

Well, that's true for all roots, isn't it?

Not to this degree. Normally as the tree approaches dormancy carbohydrates are distributed throughout the entire cardiovascular system: roots, trunk, branches, buds, etc. However, since the phloem has been severed these carbs can't get as much distributed so they end up in higher concentrations than normal.

 

[0soyoung]

Sugar in cellular fluids keeps those fluids from freezing - pointy ice crystals puncture the cell wall = death. The development of this state of cold hardiness is triggered and driven by a pattern of deepening chilling like happens in fall.

I suppose air layer roots, being exposed to temperatures above ground, could become more cold hardy than roots growing in the ground, but ...

... and what would still having a xylem connection to the mother roots have to do with it?

 

[Japonicus]

I've found that layers can survive with very few roots, especially when dormant. I've had to remove some with little more than callus and they have just powered away the following spring. Come spring the tree will be programmed to grow roots really quick. Over here in a mild climate roots will slowly form during winter. After all, maples can grow from cuttings with no roots at all so a layer with some roots is streets ahead.

How valuable is the layered branch? Worth taking a chance? Why not remove it now, pot up and put it in your normal maple wintering area and let us know the results.

Good to know on your 1st point, thanks.

You said "Come spring the tree will be programmed to grow roots really quick".
Should a clean up of the girdle ensue prior to a specific timeframe?
I believe I will wait till March to inspect the roots.
I suspect the movement of the soil/cup has damaged the roots every time the wind blows
so I probably should tape the base of the cup to the branch, or use screws and wire to secure it.

On your 2nd point, do expand on the value query.
If the layered branch bears value in mind, is it more safe to leave it be...or do as described
to pot it up now and let you know the results? This may be an opinion thing like soils
or more specific to the cultivar used, I don't know.
I do know the Mountain Maple I collected and bare rooted last Spring into bonsai soil is doing well.
These are my 1st layer attempts, and the branches are of value more than just being my 1st.
They're strategic as should be, but the Autumn Moon is quite out of sorts without this branch
and the tree itself holds some sentimental value as well.

This is the Autumn Moon and the roots are considered to be on the weaker side compared to palmatum.
Being a dwarf the Wilsons Pink is probably a bit more sketchy than standard palmatum to layer, but it sure
showed good signs of top growth this Summer and I did see a root or 2, but that's all I've seen without
removing the soil. These Rooter Pots do not allow for any delicate inspection of weak root systems.
The plastic sides sort of button together in a way that only well rooted layers should be tampered with.
Maybe I'll get a pic up of them before it rains tomorrow.

 

[Pitoon]

If you can somehow insulate the air layer to protect the roots do so. I would not seperate this time of year and with such few roots.

 

[Shibui]

On your 2nd point, do expand on the value query.

I mean how much is this layer worth to you? Is it irreplaceable so its loss will be devastating or, in the event it doesn't make it can you simply try again? You don't get a second go at some projects so need to invest extra time and effort into making absolutely sure it will work this time. In most cases you can simply try again if things don't work out so it is often worth taking a chance on something that may or may not work.
I see far too many people getting overly precious about something that can be replaced relatively easily and cheap. Just need to get things into proper perspective in order to make rational choices.

 

[Japonicus]

I mean how much is this layer worth to you? Is it irreplaceable so its loss will be devastating or, in the event it doesn't make it can you simply try again? You don't get a second go at some projects so need to invest extra time and effort into making absolutely sure it will work this time. In most cases you can simply try again if things don't work out so it is often worth taking a chance on something that may or may not work.
I see far too many people getting overly precious about something that can be replaced relatively easily and cheap. Just need to get things into proper perspective in order to make rational choices.

You are misunderstanding my question.
Sure there are other branches, I chose the best on each of the two trees.

Please allow me to ask again...
“On your 2nd point, do expand on the value query.
If the layered branch bears value in mind, is it more safe to leave it be...or do as described
to pot it up now and let you know the results? This may be an opinion thing like soils
or more specific to the cultivar used, I don't know.”

One other question I put forth was avoided...
“Come spring the tree will be programmed to grow roots really quick”
Should the girdle be cleaned again? I guess it’s possible it will callus over
and bridge the gap if I do nothing? Would it be beneficial to re-dust with hormone too?

@Pitoon seemed to understand the question on severance and I will follow that response. Thank you.

 

[Shibui]

“On your 2nd point, do expand on the value query.
If the layered branch bears value in mind, is it more safe to leave it be...or do as described
to pot it up now and let you know the results? This may be an opinion thing like soils
or more specific to the cultivar used, I don't know.”

There is definitely a lot of contributing factors o really hard to make a definite call. I don't know the risks of your cold climate. Here the main risk is drying out, not freezing. It would probably be safer to leave it until it has good roots but that may entail difficult and time consuming winter protection measures. I don't know because I have never had to do this and from the responses you have received I don't think anyone else has direct experience either all responses seem to be theoretical so cannot really be relied on. What I do know is that layers will survive and grow well even with very few roots because this I have done a number of times. It was worth asking for experiences but when you are in uncharted territory you just need to make some of your own decisions.

Should the girdle be cleaned again? I guess it’s possible it will callus over
and bridge the gap if I do nothing? Would it be beneficial to re-dust with hormone too?

Maybe this q has been avoided because this seems to have a number of preconceived ideas attached and does not relate to the original request

What happens to the roots

If there are roots the wound is unlikely to heal over because there are roots. Similarly, if there are roots then there's no need to 'clean up' the girdle come spring because there are already roots. I believe that hormone has no effect on roots themselves but also does not seem to hurt. If there are areas of callus without roots additional hormone may make a difference.
If there are no roots the whole question changes so why were roots mentioned in the first place?

There is some difference of opinion about callus and roots. Personally I see callus as the first stage in root formation so I generally leave the callus. I have potted up cuttings and layers with only callus and no visible roots and they soon begin to grow in spring. layers like this are just large cuttings but have the advantage that the cambium has already begun the process of root formation.

Variety is definitely a factor in success. Some types root easily and will survive many difficulties. Some do not root well and may fail even if it appears to have good roots. Nothing is certain.

 

[leatherback]

I find that when layers have roots, I can plant them. I have had layers with only 1/4 inch roots to take in the middle of summer. I would venture that if you have some roots, potting them up, ensuring they cannot wiggle, and waiting for spring for them to start growing would be your best bet.

 

[Shibui]

Thanks for the photo and confirmation. That's exactly what I've been trying to get across.

 

[Japonicus]

I find that when layers have roots, I can plant them. I have had layers with only 1/4 inch roots to take in the middle of summer. I would venture that if you have some roots, potting them up, ensuring they cannot wiggle, and waiting for spring for them to start growing would be your best bet.
View attachment 276504

I have my doubts that the shirasawanum has that much good rootage.
I wasn’t going to look till Spring, but you’ve got me changing my mind now and having a peak.
Maybe New Years Day. My Moms supposed to come home from a nursing home Thursday (dementia)
and things have been real down for the holidays, so I may have a chance Wednesday to open
the Rooter Pots up and bust what roots that do exist all to heck. These pots are only designed
to open up without a lot of damage if the roots are packed snug and plenteous.
Not designed for taking peaks and continuing on.
I will start with the Wilsons Pink. I’ve seen one maybe two roots on it, nothing showing on the Autumn Moon
save for a second flush of foliage in Summer. Not sure whether that’s from stored energy or roots.

 

[Carol 83]

So sorry to hear about your mom and your holidays, best of luck with the layers.