My 1st thunbergii Brocade repotted 1st time

[Japonicus]

There's a 1st for many things, today I share 2 or 3 1st's for this tree.
1st purchase from Brent at EGGW received Valentines Day this year.

My 1st Brocade cultivar and the 1st time I've repotted this tree.



The roots aren't terribly strong but I wanted to get this lil gem into a more lateral pot for training and give ample room to grow out, and in bonsai soil.



I put a cup or so of the original soil back on top of the roots once in place, but didn't see Miccorhyzea so I did inoculate with a teaspoon full about the top of the root zone
then misted that into place before topping off with new soil, though that is not pictured.


I'm not positive this is the angle I want this to grow at, nor the front for the final strategy, but the nebari is making a good frontal aspect.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Know they love to sell but buying micorrheiza not needed waste of money. Tree will likely survive replanting as these like weeds of pine kingdom.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Have fun, it is a nice cultivar with good early bark. I believe I lost mine because the graft failed. The cork and heavy growth was too much weight on the graft union at the slanting angle it took on.

Good work anchoring it firmly to the pot, don’t let it move.

 

[Japonicus]

Have fun, it is a nice cultivar with good early bark. I believe I lost mine because the graft failed. The cork and heavy growth was too much weight on the graft union at the slanting angle it took on.

Good work anchoring it firmly to the pot, don’t let it move.

Thank you Brian! It is well anchored. Small as it is, when I gave a tug on the mid section, it was firm.
The Ole No.2 juniper (behind this one in my truck bed) I potted yesterday was a different story haven changed the planting angle, I also
had to drill the mica pot to add another wire tether.

Sorry you lost yours. How old was the graft when it broke?
Have you seen the pic of my A.s. 'Autumn Moon' when the graft broke?

I was concerned with this graft, but was assured the corking would grow down over the graft to the soil
in a few short years hiding the graft entirely. This is a 2 yr graft at this point and probably couldn't get any shorter
at the bottom of the cut in the root stock. When shipped, Brent said I would be surprised at how many low branches
I had to choose from. I hope I can serve this tree well and it reciprocates.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Sorry you lost yours. How old was the graft when it broke?

It was probably 6 years old when I lost it in 2012. I’d own another, even having lost most interest in corkers.

 

[Japonicus]

It was probably 6 years old when I lost it in 2012. I’d own another, even having lost most interest in corkers.
View attachment 189903

Very nice. That's one of those 2 edged posts, that if you click LIKE it, then it feels that you've liked a loss, and that sir
would never happen here, but I do like your tree and display area. So know why I liked your post LOL Thanks for sharing that.
I know archiving pics can be a PITA sometimes.

That's crazy Brian. I would've never thought about that being an issue (graft pulling its weight). My pots often rest precariously on a 2 x 6 porch rail...
that could be a real issue with a fall. I love the display there, though I'm sure much has changed since then. Maybe one of these days
I can have a place where I can do such a nice display and fence.

 

[Japonicus]

Is it normal for Brocade to be so brittle?



I am glad this isn't the 1st BP I've owned, it's so doggone brittle and stout.
I did a limited amount of needle cutting, and pulled a few though it's not ready for pulling yet.
That removes the entire sheath if not careful. Actually one needle at a time will keep the sheath in tact, at this point.
I just had to see how the needles felt and get my fingers into the trunk a little.
Needles break in half or damage way too easily. I suppose this is normal for Brocade???
Wiring's gonna be a real PITA, and wiring was what I was trying to get a feel of the trunk and needles for.
Not ready to wire yet with so many needles I need to remove

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Yes.

 

[M. Frary]

didn't see Miccorhyzea

So maybe it isn't all that important?
Maybe its microscopic and can't be seen?
What if you put in the wrong kind for that particular tree?
There's a thread here where someone added it in and it took over the soil. Couldn't even water the thing.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Brocade is brittle, I have one also.

I would have planted the tree a touch deeper, you want the surface roots buried at least 1/4 to 1/2 inches deep, in order for them to continue developing. Exposing roots that young risks having some die off. Keep em buried for a few more years. Too late now, hopefully they will be okay.

Leave it alone, no needle pulling, nothing, until it has had 12 months to recover.

Then you can work on it.

 

[Japonicus]

So maybe it isn't all that important?
Maybe its microscopic and can't be seen?
What if you put in the wrong kind for that particular tree?
There's a thread here where someone added it in and it took over the soil. Couldn't even water the thing.

Well, maybe not as important to add it, if not bare rooting, and not adding some old soil back in, but the fungus is important I read.

Yes, it all starts micro, and I suppose some strains remain that way. I agree whole heartedly.
As for adding the wrong strain, well, that strain(s) would cease and desist That's why a broad spectrum is used, hopefully one strain
will hit the mark. Still, you and Potawatomi13 are correct, the correct strain IS in the original soil.

I believe you Mike. Some Miccorhyzea become quite visible and quite matted. I've seen it like that on the one in my avatar before
but not to the point of restricting water. I'm sure let go a few more years, it would have, or the roots would have choked itself off one.
Potawatomi calls it snake oil, I like the term insurance, or maybe I'm just a sucker or lack confidence. A small amount lasts for years, so not a $ issue.
If I had root rot on a pine and washed the roots and rid the soil, you can betchya I'd be using some.

 

[Japonicus]

Brocade is brittle, I have one also.

I would have planted the tree a touch deeper, you want the surface roots buried at least 1/4 to 1/2 inches deep, in order for them to continue developing. Exposing roots that young risks having some die off. Keep em buried for a few more years. Too late now, hopefully they will be okay.

Leave it alone, no needle pulling, nothing, until it has had 12 months to recover.

Then you can work on it.

Thanks Leo. I will go ahead and + some depth atop the roots even though you say it's too late.

Okay...12 months is next Spring.
In the meantime, I needn't worry about getting air and light into the trunk at all?
It has grown well this Summer.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Pulling needles is really for trees 10 years older than this one, it is a refinement technique for near exhibition trees. It is not standard for young trees that need to grow. Right now this tree needs to photosynthesize as much as possible so it can grow, don't pull needles "like the books tell you to do for refined trees". Pulling needles will weaken the tree, which is not what you want to do right after repotting. Next year, if the tree is still healthy, you can pull some needles only to prevent shading of areas you want to have back bud. Not a good idea, not needed this year.

Your tree is young. Post the pictures of it you have taken, as to how it looks now. You want to keep it as vibrant and bushy the way it is now. Right now it is in vibrant good health. Brocade, and all cork bark JBP are notorious for being weak growers. Before you do a technique to this tree, like repotting, wiring, pruning, needle pulling, candle cutting. Anything. Before you perform a technique, first make sure the tree in front of you is vibrant and healthy, as healthy as it is in the photographs you have posted here. If it does not look as bushy and full as it does here, it has not recovered from what ever you did to it previously. Don't do any technique on a weak cork bark JBP, or you will risk sending the tree into a long spiral of slow decline that usually ends in death. Cork barks really are not vigorous, they are genetically defective, they put too much energy into bark and not enough into other aspects of growth.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

So with cork barks, you do something, anything, then leave the tree alone a long time, sometimes one year, sometimes two or more years. When new growth is vigorous, needles vibrant and healthy, then it is time to do the next technique. These really are park it on a bench and leave it alone for multiple years at a time. Of course, sun, water, and fertilizer are essential. Beyond that, mostly leave them alone.

I have killed many, more than I care to admit. I killed one I had kept healthy for 18 years, all by doing too much, without allowing adequate time for recovery.

Remember, for grafted trees the graft union does not heal instantly, generally healing is a 6 to 10 year process before it can be considered a fully healed graft. At 2 years the graft is merely ''stable'', the tree needs to form layers of wood to truly be healed, and this can take up to 10 years. Until the graft is healed, and there has been a significant increase in diameter of both the understock and scion (ideally, equal increase in diameter, not counting bark), until there has been wood added, the graft is delicate and handling the tree, wiring the tree it is possible to break the union. Be careful. Freeze thaw cycling can also break a graft union, so the first 5 winters make sure you protect the tree from freezing significantly below 28 F (-2 C ). I forget the freeze point normal sap in the stems of a JBP but it is a few degrees below freezing, you don't want ice crystals to form in the graft union. Light frost is no problem, it is the ''hard freeze'' that is a problem in the first 4 or 5 winters after grafting.

I keep all my grafted trees above +25 F (above -4 C) all winter, usually above 32 F (oC).

 

[Japonicus]

Pulling needles is really for trees 10 years older than this one, it is a refinement technique for near exhibition trees. It is not standard for young trees that need to grow. Right now this tree needs to photosynthesize as much as possible so it can grow, don't pull needles "like the books tell you to do for refined trees". Pulling needles will weaken the tree, which is not what you want to do right after repotting. Next year, if the tree is still healthy, you can pull some needles only to prevent shading of areas you want to have back bud. Not a good idea, not needed this year.

Your tree is young. Post the pictures of it you have taken, as to how it looks now. You want to keep it as vibrant and bushy the way it is now. Right now it is in vibrant good health. Brocade, and all cork bark JBP are notorious for being weak growers. Before you do a technique to this tree, like repotting, wiring, pruning, needle pulling, candle cutting. Anything. Before you perform a technique, first make sure the tree in front of you is vibrant and healthy, as healthy as it is in the photographs you have posted here. If it does not look as bushy and full as it does here, it has not recovered from what ever you did to it previously. Don't do any technique on a weak cork bark JBP, or you will risk sending the tree into a long spiral of slow decline that usually ends in death. Cork barks really are not vigorous, they are genetically defective, they put too much energy into bark and not enough into other aspects of growth.

Valuable input ! I feel like I’ve learned something today. Thank you.
Perhaps these pointers are why Brian has gotten away from corkers.

As to overwintering....your criteria cannot be met. I do not have such a controlled environment
unless a propagation mat (heated) would help during a below zero F. spell.
Single digits and teens abound. I mulch my pots on the ground underneath my sunroom
on the N side of the house roughly 6’ back from the wide open out of doors protected
by the house and the stairs on this end, like a cave.
Under the house is moldy and temps may drop to 40 F at lowest, and in the 50”s otherwise.
Sunroom temp mirrors outdoor temp without wind. Any ideas?

 

[0soyoung]

Any ideas?

I suggest you just assure that the graft union is mulched in also (i.e., pile mulch right up to the first foliage. I don' think it is much different that wintering hybid tea roses, if you're into/familiar with growing them.

 

[Japonicus]

I suggest you just assure that the graft union is mulched in also (i.e., pile mulch right up to the first foliage. I don' think it is much different that wintering hybid tea roses, if you're into/familiar with growing them.

Hi 0soyoung. I have grown tea roses. My Heart of Gold is hanging on by a thread, but good as dead. Actually it's probably a floribunda.
Roses however are a dime a dozen so to say compared to bonsai, and I just can't meet the freeze criteria.
Sure, mulched up, and in the cave is all I can do, but with nearly -20º Winter before last, mulch won't cut what Leo was alluding to
in order to keep the sap from freezing.

I just can't get over how timid these can be. Had I known that, I would've stuck with some other pine from Brent.
Really impressed with the growth this year, but hate the brittleness. This may be one for eBay.
I mean I was playing around with the tree, and must have flipped my sheers up into my palm to pull a bundle
and later noticed the whole front side of the apex shoot was flattened out, needles broken off and didn't know I had
even come close to it really. Like a long spine sea urchin, of which I am not a fan either. Not looking forwards to wiring this guy.

 

[0soyoung]

Sure, mulched up, and in the cave is all I can do, but with nearly -20º Winter before last, mulch won't cut what Leo was alluding to
in order to keep the sap from freezing.

OUCH!
Indeed, mulch can only moderate brief extremes.

 

[M. Frary]

Freeze thaw cycling can also break a graft union,

Lost a couple of grafted hinokis from this.

 

[Adair M]

Any JBP has delicate needles at this time of year. Or, perhaps I should say, until they have hardened off. When JBP needles are in the growing phase, they are very delicate. Tug on them at all, and they will release from the sheath. In fact, that’s one of the tests to determine if JBP are ready to be worked! Do a light pull on a new needle. If it pulls out easily, it’s not ready! Leave it alone! If it resists being pulled out, then it MIGHT zone hardened off.

Another test is the color. If the needles are dark green, they MIGHT be hardened off.

The final test is the stiffness and pokiness of the needles. If they are at all soft, and not prickly, they’re not ready. Needles should be stiff and prickly.

It sounds like your needles are not hardened off. Leave the tree alone.

Most people new to bonsai mess with their trees too much. Just say’n.