My brand new baby Japanese black pine

RNbonsai

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ok- so I found this at the nursery. Not a lot of choices around here and on a limited bonsai budget.
That being said I'm excited to have my first black pine and realize it's a slow process. Any advice for what to do with it from this point? I was thinking chop at that low branch and put it in the ground.
 

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Cypress187

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If you have a low budget, perhaps this plant can get layered in more of them, because u will need to chop a lot of it to make it bonsai (in the right season and the right technique).
 
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RNbonsai

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It was 24.95$ so I could try to layer if it works well on them- more that I can't but like 100$ plus types- trying to figure out when to chop it- any advice is appreciated
 

Cypress187

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I don't think it can be chopped in 1 go, u will need to get more foliage on the part u are going to keep to sustain that part. Removing foliage on top could give / balance more energy on that low branch (or layering it off), but I also don't know the best season / technique. (I'm also beginner, especially on pines / conifers).
 

0soyoung

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Any advice for what to do with it from this point? I was thinking chop at that low branch and put it in the ground.
My first thought is to wonder how bendable that trunk is, down low - probably very difficult to do at this point.

babyJBP.jpg

I agree that the beginnings of your tree are probably at that whirl where you now have two branches (indicated by arrow 2). I see there is a new shoot near the ground level, which may be the lowest node on your tree - how far down is it from there (arrow 1) to the roots? I think this is a node because it is extremely unlikely to pop a bud in the internode (the stem between successive whirs/nodes such as between arrows 1 and 2) after the needles have fallen off.

So, one of the two branches at node 2 will remain a branch and the other will, at some time in the future, become the next trunk section. Either way, you want to be sure to have a node close to the trunk. Nodes/whirls are created by the seasonal terminal buds. Usually the next season's candle has a 'neck' and then a stem covered with needles. That branch going to the right of the trunk looks to have two nodes, but I cannot say for sure. As annotated on the pic, I would prune this branch at the arrow next spring, when the buds/candles have started to elongate. Often times the tree will generate terminal buds at the cut end (i.e., create a node), sometimes it doesn't. It likely will release a fascicular bud or maybe a few - buds at the base of a needle group.

The trunk above node 2 will likely be removed, but you will keep it until the trunk (1-2) is the thickness you want for your bonsai. Planting it out will help with thickening the base (a natural reaction to the long sacrifice waving in the wind with the roots locked into the ground), but it comes with potential difficulties getting the roots out of the ground afterward. It would be good to spend at least a couple of seasons developing fibrous roots close to the trunk before sticking it in the ground; i.e., grow in a pond basket full of inorganic medium first. Once the trunk (up to node 2) is as thick as you wantn you'll chop the trunk and you'll point the end of one or the other of those 2 branches up to make your next trunk section. If you planted it out, this would also be the time to dig it out again and return to growing in a pond basket.

Lastly, there is a lot of foliage above. Removing the top whirl wouldn't slow down your trunk thickening very much, so you could try layering it while developing roots. In my cool climate, it took most of three seasons to air layer a JBP 'thunderhead'. George Muranaka in Nipomo, CA gets harvestable layers in one season; you likely will too., But, so what if it does take two seasons - you're developing roots during this time anyway. On the other hand, it is no biggie if you just don't want to mess with it.

Do investigate how far down it is to the roots from that lowest node 1. It may be appropriate to shift down to it being the node of your next trunk section instead of node 2 as I've discussed.


... or something along these lines. ;)
 

RNbonsai

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Wow awesome reply.
I'll check into the roots today or tommorrow and repot in spring, I'm on board with the might as well later it idea also
 

Guy Vitale

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If you plan to put it in the ground anyway, plant it as is and continue to grow the top as a sacrifice branch just letting one single candle (strongest bud) grow every year. In the meantime you develop the lowest branches as part of your planned design. In a few short years you will have a nice fat trunk and a semi fully developed tree ready for a trunk chop.
 

Adair M

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Ok..,

I'm going to tell you the truth. This tree is a waste of time. I'm sorry about that.

I don't like saying this kind of stuff, and it seems I'm about the only one on this forum who is brave enough to say it. But that tree will take longer to fix all its problems than it will take to grow a bunch of nice JBP from seed!

Seriously!

Eric Schreader once brought a similiar tree to Boon for advice. And received the same advice I'm giving you here today. Check out Eric's thread: "Some pine seeds six years later". In six years Eric grew some killer trees! It will take you at least a decade to get your tree into any kind of condition to start to make a bonsai.

Also, another source for growing from seed is Jonas' blog: www.bonsaitonight.com.
 

Guy Vitale

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Adair, I completely get where you are coming from, and after 15 years in bonsai, I wish I knew then what I know now. That said, material like this is what most beginners are going to start our with, they don't have the confidence or knowledge to get very nice material. This tree may not ever be great material, but there is valuable info and techniques that can be learned from it as well as the patients it takes to field grow the tree a few years. I'm still working with my eastern white pine 15 years later and it may take another 15 to get it looking good, but the journey is well worth it, in the meantime I gave acquired nicer material, struck seeds, etc. Don't be so down on substandard material, I would much rather a beginner lose a $25 tree then talking them into higher priced material and get dejected when it craps out. Please keep the great advice coming, I have learned quite a bit from you during my short time on the Nut.
 

RNbonsai

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Appreciate the advice. Adair I respect your opinions- I've seen your trees on here. I've tried growing some stuff from seed and have not done well-0% lived :(. I'll grow this out to learn on it- while searching for better stuff- may try seeds again too.

I don't think any tree in my hands have show potential at this point, but hopefully I'll keep em alive till I learn!

That said- why would it take longer than growing from seed? Would the lowest branches just take along time to develop?
 

Adair M

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Appreciate the advice. Adair I respect your opinions- I've seen your trees on here. I've tried growing some stuff from seed and have not done well-0% lived :(. I'll grow this out to learn on it- while searching for better stuff- may try seeds again too.

I don't think any tree in my hands have show potential at this point, but hopefully I'll keep em alive till I learn!

That said- why would it take longer than growing from seed? Would the lowest branches just take along time to develop?
Because the internodes are too long. And there is no taper. The distance between the nebari and the first branch is too long. That littl sprout way down low is so weak it may not live.

There is a famous article in Bonsai Today that describes how to grow JBP from seed. The key is to get fresh seed! And chill them before planting.

The Bonsai Today article is reprinted in the "Masters book of pines" book sold by Stone Lantern.

That was the guide for Eric.
 

Adair M

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Adair, I completely get where you are coming from, and after 15 years in bonsai, I wish I knew then what I know now. That said, material like this is what most beginners are going to start our with, they don't have the confidence or knowledge to get very nice material. This tree may not ever be great material, but there is valuable info and techniques that can be learned from it as well as the patients it takes to field grow the tree a few years. I'm still working with my eastern white pine 15 years later and it may take another 15 to get it looking good, but the journey is well worth it, in the meantime I gave acquired nicer material, struck seeds, etc. Don't be so down on substandard material, I would much rather a beginner lose a $25 tree then talking them into higher priced material and get dejected when it craps out. Please keep the great advice coming, I have learned quite a bit from you during my short time on the Nut.
Lol!!!

I didn't tell him to buy more expensive material! I told him to plant seeds! Way less than $25!

No... I get it. But here's the thing: not every piece of nursery material has the right qualities to make a decent bonsai. This particular tree has a tall, skinny trunk with internodes far apart. No taper. What few low branches there are have no secondary branches.

I mean, there's just nothing there!

Truely, the hardest lesson to learn as a beginner is picking stock to work with! I understand, he went to the nursery, and low and behold! A JBP!!! So he bought it. And gets it home and realizes there's not much there... now what? It's frustrating!

Ok... if you say you can't grow seeds, buy some seedlings from Matt Ouwinga. Around Christmas, he'll have a couple thousand for sale!

Or, contact Jonas via his website www.bonsaitonight.com. Ask him to sell you some seedlings. They will be seedling cuttings.

A seedling cutting is a special way to grow seeds so that the trunk will have low branches. After the seed sprouts, a shoot grows that becomes the future trunk. They tend to grow pretty tall before stopping to put out branches. A seedling cutting cuts that trunk off! And the roots! All there is is a little tuft of needles. Stick those in sand. They'll grow new roots, but that long featureless section of trunk is gone. Now your low branches will be within an inch of the soil!

Anyway, see if Jonas will sell ya some.
 
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There might be a future in the lowest bud, but most likely the roots won't be good enough to use that. And yes, long way to get there, faster with seed. Good tree to look at the reaction of the tree.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@RNbonsai - Okay, you have gotten a workable plan from Osoyoung, - recognizing that it will be years before this tree will look like much, and may always be flawed. AdairM told you the truth. But since you already have this tree, @osoyoung's plan will work. I'd remove the branches from whorl 3 and maybe 4, then let the top escape. Removing whorls 3 and 4 would make sure sun gets to whorls 1 & 2. Forget air layering, that will only result in a second tree with similar problems. Ground grow or transfer to an Anderson flat, or growing box. Anderson flats are 15 x 15 x 5 inches deep. with a mesh bottom.

Adair is right, while working this tree, pick up seedlings for bonsai, from Matt Owinga, I have seedlings from him and they are more bonsai training worthy than anything from a nursery. Not very expensive either. If you buy a bundle of 10 or more they can be pretty cheap.
 

RNbonsai

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Ok, still haven't had a chance to fiddle with this one. Ok, seedlings might be easier for me-I'll check that out. yes adair described how I ended with this tree perfectly- "sweet a JBP, BUY.....hmm damn" hey live and learn. some of my other small trees are still alive and doing well though.
and hopefully ill finish a juniper in time for the forum competition!
 

aml1014

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Ok, still haven't had a chance to fiddle with this one. Ok, seedlings might be easier for me-I'll check that out. yes adair described how I ended with this tree perfectly- "sweet a JBP, BUY.....hmm damn" hey live and learn. some of my other small trees are still alive and doing well though.
and hopefully ill finish a juniper in time for the forum competition!
Adair is correct that seeds are just flat out easier.I sis the exact same thing when I started and I'll tell you what, that POS little black pine has taught me TONS! I've learned needle pulling, decandling, and this year I learned they cant handle a slight over dosage of systemics, DEAD! Keep this guy around and learn with it, I now know to be a little more careful lol but I actually have a few JBP around now that can be something someday and they're all very happy.

Aaron
 

augustine

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Absolutely, chop it as instructed and continue to cultivate. If you want additional material, check and see what Dallas Bonsai has in pre-bonsai material. They are a good vendor and have reasonable prices.

Also as stated Matt Ouwinga at Kaede Bonsai is a very good guy.
 

Adair M

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Matt is a great guy, and will have thousands of seedlings available around Christmas.
 

Adair M

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Another resource is Mark Comstock.

He's making JBP seedling cuttings.
 
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