Vance Wood

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First of all; my opinion is probabbly as meaningfull or meaningless as any so; I will offer it any way. Interest in bonsai has become a world wide interest where the Japanese and Chinese methods are not so strongly adhered to as they once were. The students have grown up and in some casses overtaken their teachers.

Those who once viewed what they had learned as being sacred are realizing that the rules are nothing more than a revelation of the successes of the past and it's time to make new rules.

Don't forget, horse crap is good for making the flowers grow. So now we find ourselves looking for artistic souls of our own, and identities unique to us. The hope is to not be identified as an idiot.
 
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GrimLore

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I have looked at these a few times today. I keep thinking "eclectic elegance" is a proper description. Nice work man!

Grimmy
 

Adair M

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I'm sure you will get lots of feedback usually the ones to jump in first and say it is not..hint hint...have no artistic ability and there is a difference in someone teaching you how to refine a tree , etc, and creating a artistic piece. They envy you.good job!
Oh, Stacey has infinitely more artistic talent than I have! No dispute there. His displays are beautiful, well thought out, imaginative, and unique.

But it's all about the "display". Not the tree. We all know "bonsai" means "tree in a tray". That gives room for broad interpretations of what is a tree, and what is a tray.

I view the role of the stands, accent plants, scrolls is to enhance the appreciation of the bonsai, the "tree in a tray", not to detract from it. Just as the frame is used to enhance the Mona Lisa. Not obscure it.

Anyway...

Congratulations, Stacey, for the acceptance into the Nationals! I look forward to finally getting a chance to meet you!

Just to further the discussion...

Why "American" bonsai? Walter Pall isn't promoting "German" bonsai. He's promoting "Naturalistic" bonsai. Should Juan Andrade be promoting "Costa Rican" bonsai? Graham Potter promoting "British" bonsai?

How about "Neuvo Bonsai"?
 

jriddell88

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Yea just some mumbo jumbo. At the rate we are destroying the planet, especially the US, there will be no bonsai in the future. They say that jupiters moon, europa, may one day be able to inhabit life forms , when our sun grows large enough , maybe a few billion years ?
 
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Oh, Stacey has infinitely more artistic talent than I have! No dispute there. His displays are beautiful, well thought out, imaginative, and unique.

But it's all about the "display". Not the tree. We all know "bonsai" means "tree in a tray". That gives room for broad interpretations of what is a tree, and what is a tray.

I view the role of the stands, accent plants, scrolls is to enhance the appreciation of the bonsai, the "tree in a tray", not to detract from it. Just as the frame is used to enhance the Mona Lisa. Not obscure it.

Anyway...

Congratulations, Stacey, for the acceptance into the Nationals! I look forward to finally getting a chance to meet you!

Just to further the discussion...

Why "American" bonsai? Walter Pall isn't promoting "German" bonsai. He's promoting "Naturalistic" bonsai. Should Juan Andrade be promoting "Costa Rican" bonsai? Graham Potter promoting "British" bonsai?

How about "Neuvo Bonsai"?
Thanks for the compliment and I look forward to meeting you as well as others hopefully at the US Nationals. Was supposed to vend last time, but my wife was sick and I was unable to make it.

Also, wanted to say that I don't feel anyone's views are wrong here, or that someone is being jealous of what I have done. We are just talking shop talk! Everyone has a different view of how the shop should be run, and the foreman is always telling everyone to get back to work, as they sit in their air conditioned office, with the nice padded leaning seat and their feet up on the table chatting to some girl on the phone about what she is wearing, while endlessly cramming food into his mouth!
All good!

Side note... Walter isn't promoting German bonsai, cause he is too busy promoting American Bonsai... and the English I believe are lumped into the whole European Bonsai scene...
SORRY Walter! Still love you and your work! Lol!
 
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Central and South Americans I believe are screwed even though they do awesome work, cause no one ever hears about them...
Sad really, perhaps they should be included in the whole "American" theme, we got going?
 

AlainK

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Both trees are really great and have a great personality.

I'm not so enthusiastic about the other elements in the composition: a more "USonian" display would make it milestones, but as someone wrote, or asked, why the pseudo-Japanese paraphenelia? Free yourself of these chains!

Topnotch tress, just good display: why don't you Americans hate yourselves?(*)... You live in the land of Henry Thoreau, andy Warhol and Aretha Franklin, so why don't you have more imagination for a real Usonian display? (OK, I've made myself some more enemies, but that's what I think)

(*) Running joke. I like this one because it brings people to saying stupid/interesting things about themselves (I like "people").

 

LanceMac10

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andy Warhol

Him and I are surely not from the same planet!:p

I'm sure his planet is cool, despite the Campbell's soup cans and Marilyn Monroe heads.:confused::p

Ms. Fitzgerald? Yes please!:cool:

I like France, by the way, though I've never been. My ol' lady just went to Paris right after.....ya' know......and she liked it.
But I will cope to being a long-time self-loather!:rolleyes:
 

rockm

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Both trees are really great and have a great personality.

I'm not so enthusiastic about the other elements in the composition: a more "USonian" display would make it milestones, but as someone wrote, or asked, why the pseudo-Japanese paraphenelia? Free yourself of these chains!

Topnotch tress, just good display: why don't you Americans hate yourselves?(*)... You live in the land of Henry Thoreau, andy Warhol and Aretha Franklin, so why don't you have more imagination for a real Usonian display? (OK, I've made myself some more enemies, but that's what I think)

(*) Running joke. I like this one because it brings people to saying stupid/interesting things about themselves (I like "people").

I think there is a lot of room for Western interpretation of Japanese methods without going completely reactionary. It's not the paraphernalia itself. Westerners don't understand the CONTENT of some of the scrolls, statues and plantings (yes companion plants have meaning in context) , but the METHOD in which all of that is used--three point, illustration, companion plant, bronze figure, etc., that is the point.

And FWIW, this Usonian house is about a mile from mine
http://www.virginialiving.com/home-garden/inside-affordable-housing/
Gotta love FLW's interpretation of Japanese esthetics.
 
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AlainK

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Westerners don't understand the CONTENT

When you display a workpiece that can only be understood by a clique of "insiders", what's the point?

Art should be a form of education, not a way to build walls between the common people and the elite.

(Wow! I think I'll soon be labeled a "commie" by some- fortunately, there's a forum software between me and the trigger-happy wet blankets, and only would-be criminals carry guns in wonderful old europe :p)

It's quite funny (or rather, surprising) to see that some of those who belong to a country that dropped an atomic bomb and killed thousands of children in Japan to assert their power over the "new order" are now trying to imitate a culture they only know through clichés, from the surface layer of a fantasized eastern world.

1955, the year I was born.
The locals
Spencer Tracy

 

rockm

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When you display a workpiece that can only be understood by a clique of "insiders", what's the point?

Art should be a form of education, not a way to build walls between the common people and the elite.

(Wow! I think I'll soon be labeled a "commie" by some- fortunately, there's a forum software between me and the trigger-happy wet blankets, and only would-be criminals carry guns in wonderful old europe :p)

It's quite funny (or rather, surprising) to see that some of those who belong to a country that dropped an atomic bomb and killed thousands of children in Japan to assert their power over the "new order" are now trying to imitate a culture they only know through clichés, from the surface layer of a fantasized eastern world.

1955, the year I was born.
The locals
Spencer Tracy

SMH, clichés seem to be part and parcel of misunderstanding a culture. Too bad we can't keep the political out of this. Your observation insults not only some of my kin who were killed by the very same hegemonic facist state you ascribe victimhood to, but yourself, since it falls to the same level of pathetic cliché as the one you ascribe to us.
 

Adair M

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When you display a workpiece that can only be understood by a clique of "insiders", what's the point?

Art should be a form of education, not a way to build walls between the common people and the elite.

(Wow! I think I'll soon be labeled a "commie" by some- fortunately, there's a forum software between me and the trigger-happy wet blankets, and only would-be criminals carry guns in wonderful old europe :p)

It's quite funny (or rather, surprising) to see that some of those who belong to a country that dropped an atomic bomb and killed thousands of children in Japan to assert their power over the "new order" are now trying to imitate a culture they only know through clichés, from the surface layer of a fantasized eastern world.

1955, the year I was born.
The locals
Spencer Tracy

Yeah, we're the same people responsible for the fact your grandchildren still speak French rather than German.
 
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When you display a workpiece that can only be understood by a clique of "insiders", what's the point?

Art should be a form of education, not a way to build walls between the common people and the elite.

(Wow! I think I'll soon be labeled a "commie" by some- fortunately, there's a forum software between me and the trigger-happy wet blankets, and only would-be criminals carry guns in wonderful old europe :p)

It's quite funny (or rather, surprising) to see that some of those who belong to a country that dropped an atomic bomb and killed thousands of children in Japan to assert their power over the "new order" are now trying to imitate a culture they only know through clichés, from the surface layer of a fantasized eastern world.

1955, the year I was born.
The locals
Spencer Tracy

AlainK... please don't turn this discussion into a retarded mind fuck about political and social views...
I worked very hard on these two displays over the past month. I have not trashed your views in any way here, nor sought to try and insult you, your country, your belief etc. In fact, I don't actually recall anyone doing this, do you? I think the only comment made was by RockM who, I believe was merely stating the obvious that most people probably don't understand the cultural significance of what items might represent. And to be honest, I don't think anyone would totally get what all of every item might represent to a culture, unless they were of the original culture. Other than that... I think the only other comment made here towards what you have posted is in regards to someones wife traveling to France.

So, are we done?
Or, do we need to spend to rest of the thread discussing stuff that has little to do with Bonsai?
Let me know... cause I had planned on posting a whole range of other photos regarding the two displays and discussing them in further detail.
Everything but the pot for the Green Island Ficus, I built and created, and did so within the last 2 and a half weeks. Pretty cool stuff!
So, let us know... if not, I would be more than willing to start up a new thread and we can discuss them... and you can continue to post what you would like here.
You are more than welcome to participate in the discussion regarding actual Bonsai if you would like as well... I don't think it is fair however, to me... as well as anyone else who would like to see the Bonsai stuff, if we have the two discussions going on at the same time.
Thanks.
 

rockm

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AlainK... please don't turn this discussion into a retarded mind fuck about political and social views...
I worked very hard on these two displays over the past month. I have not trashed your views in any way here, nor sought to try and insult you, your country, your belief etc. In fact, I don't actually recall anyone doing this, do you? I think the only comment made was by RockM who, I believe was merely stating the obvious that most people probably don't understand the cultural significance of what items might represent. And to be honest, I don't think anyone would totally get what all of every item might represent to a culture, unless they were of the original culture. Other than that... I think the only other comment made here towards what you have posted is in regards to someones wife traveling to France.

So, are we done?
Or, do we need to spend to rest of the thread discussing stuff that has little to do with Bonsai?
Let me know... cause I had planned on posting a whole range of other photos regarding the two displays and discussing them in further detail.
Everything but the pot for the Green Island Ficus, I built and created, and did so within the last 2 and a half weeks. Pretty cool stuff!
So, let us know... if not, I would be more than willing to start up a new thread and we can discuss them... and you can continue to post what you would like here.
You are more than welcome to participate in the discussion regarding actual Bonsai if you would like as well... I don't think it is fair however, to me... as well as anyone else who would like to see the Bonsai stuff, if we have the two discussions going on at the same time.
Thanks.
I was talking about the relative obscurity (even in Japan) of the symbolism of some of the pairings, art and sculpture that is used with bonsai. Just as Westerners may, or may not, be familiar with the symbolic details of Christmas or Easter decorations or traditions (and they are vast and deep), not all Japanese may not be familiar with the significance of the image of cuckoo flying across the moon image, why a carp is important in a composition, or what crows symbolize.
http://nalatanalata.com/journal/motifs-in-japanese-design/


That kind of cultural detail is why Americans and Westerners can't really relate to some Japanese bonsai compositions. I was talking about adapting the WAY those cultural images are shown as being a possible a piece of the puzzle to make bonsai more relevant in a Western setting. The Japanese method of using a triad of artistic elements, each playing off the other, visually and metaphorically, to communicate a single message can be effective universally. Those same visual elements can be adapted using appropriate stuff from western culture, such as native wildlife sculpture, subdued plein aire painting, or native companion plants.
 
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LanceMac10

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Yeah, we're the same people responsible for the fact your grandchildren still speak French rather than German.

Well. if it wasn't for "the French" I would be a subject of the British Crown! Or speaking Algonquin!!

Hehehee...I love a long weekend!!!:rolleyes:

And I got to stay home and take care of Junior for a week!:eek::D
 
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Declarations up front:
(a) I'm not American, so probably shouldn't comment!
(b) I think your displays are striking and well executed artworks.

There are some interesting ideas here, that raise questions.

Your appropriation and subversion of 'classical bonsai' standards and expectations is clear and effective, and your arguments about that are coherent.

However, does this mean that you are defining 'American Bonsai' as a reaction to other influences, and not as an art/craft form with its own identity in and of itself?

Would someone not versed in the traditions and vocabulary of bonsai recognise what you are doing as something authentically American?

Thanks for the comment as well as compliment, I appreciate it!
Let me first state that at least for me, the whole Notion of American Bonsai, really has little to do with what I believe is the more important role, and that is the overall progression of the Art of Bonsai itself... no matter where one lives. Other than perhaps the personal pride of representing where one's from, and the rivalry that often goes along with it, that one could compare to that of supporting your local sports team... The whole notion as well as the discussion and title of this thread had more to do with the fact that at the present time here in the states, we seem to be questioning and asking ourselves how is what we are doing fit into the overall scheme of things in regards to Bonsai. There of course is no secret agenda, no evil plot to rule the world... and the discussion really is one that I am sure if you were to look at every country in the world, including the Japanese as well as Chinese, you would find, very similar conversations going on within each, and I bet if one was to search not to far back into the recent history of each country doing bonsai, more than likely what you would find, is that this discussion, has been one that has been going on for some time. I am sure folks 20-30 years ago here in the states were so groupie crazy over Naka, and what he was doing, and how he too was leading the charge for some great American Bonsai scene... I am sure where you live this is happening as well, so we all share a common thread and your views should be as welcomed as any ones!

Let me answer your questions by saying, as for myself and my own personal view... I would not define American Bonsai as a reaction to other influences, although they will often and usually do play a role. We do not exist in a bubble... and unless somebody just creates a totally new art form, an artists work will always be based upon those who have gone before. For me, what makes it one's own, is when you take this past, build upon it, and take it further than where you picked it up. This is the goal of every artist... to leave their mark, their own identity.

As to the second question as to recognizing what I am doing as something authentically American... this is obviously the topic of much discussion here. The question being what is actually American? Unless it's a recognizable "cliche", to use Alain's word... if I might, unless it is a teepee, a buffalo, cowboy or indian... which are all items most associate with being American... often it probably would be hard to really narrow something down to an item most my recognize as being from only one area.
 
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I was talking about the relative obscurity (even in Japan) of the symbolism of some of the pairings, art and sculpture that is used with bonsai. Just as Westerners may, or may not, be familiar with the symbolic details of Christmas or Easter decorations or traditions (and they are vast and deep), not all Japanese may not be familiar with the significance of the image of cuckoo flying across the moon image, why a carp is important in a composition, or what crows symbolize.
http://nalatanalata.com/journal/motifs-in-japanese-design/


That kind of cultural detail is why Americans and Westerners can't really relate to some Japanese bonsai compositions. I was talking about adapting the WAY those cultural images are shown as being a possible a piece of the puzzle to make bonsai more relevant in a Western setting. The Japanese method of using a triad of artistic elements, each playing off the other, visually and metaphorically, to communicate a single message can be effective universally. Those same visual elements can be adapted using appropriate stuff from western culture, such as native wildlife sculpture, subdued plein aire painting, or native companion plants.
I totally understand what you are getting at and agree... And often just as with our own Native cultures here, these meanings will differ totally depending on regions, clans... tribes... Then you have Kids who are more interested in posting selfies, and their parents who were more interested in listening to Elvis and the Beatles, and stuff gets lost.
 
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