My first cottoneaster!! (cranberry) let me know what you think.

[Cypress]

Picked this up today from a nursery on sale. struck my eye with tiny leaves (and a few berries!) of all the ones they had for sale i picked this one since i spotted a very interesting trunk amidst the bushy mess. Not a thick trunk, but really original movement and I plan on doing a shohin with this guy so trunk size isn't vital. the nebari must be hidden under the soil, but i dont want to root around much in the roots yet.

So I decided to jump in today and do some preliminary pruning to see what I'm working with. (turned out to be a bit more than preliminary haha, but I'm sure the plant will be fine since it will go dormant soon, plus this whole week is going to be mid 70's it will regain some vigour.)

But here are the before and after pics, let me know what you think, advice appreciated

After initial pruning, I'm leaning towards making the smaller branch on the left a mini apex, and the higher foliage on the right the main apex.......

 

[Cypress]

I plan on repotting and doing the initial styling next spring

 

[RJNick]

Nice tree!

I love cottoneaster and this one looks like you had quite a nice branch selection. Let me ask you a question since I am a total newbie and have some privets that have similar branch structure bear the soil line. If you'd have left on a few branches very close to the soil line, would that have caused eventual increase and trunk girth and taper? Would you only use one branch or multiple to carry that out?

Would love to see how this project progresses. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Cypress]

I Let me ask you a question since I am a total newbie and have some privets that have similar branch structure bear the soil line. If you'd have left on a few branches very close to the soil line, would that have caused eventual increase and trunk girth and taper? Would you only use one branch or multiple to carry that out?

Yea, that would be called a sacrifice branch. there was one branch near the base I was considering leaving on just for that purpose: fatten up the base of the trunk. But decided to just do without it, since I'm going for a very small sized bonsai I didn't think it was incredibly important. If I decided to change my mind down the line and next spring a shoot pops from close to the soil like I may keep it just to fatten the trunk.

when you do a sacrifice branch you want to just let it grow as long as it wants to unpruned until you've reached the desirable thickness. Pretty sure thats how that works! Usually just have one really long ugly branch sticking out for a while, haha.

 

[drew33998]

It will definitely take some years to fatten it up a bit. Maybe plant it in a very large grow box and let it go.

 

[Cypress]

It will definitely take some years to fatten it up a bit. Maybe plant it in a very large grow box and let it go.

Honestly I'n not too concerned with fattening it up alot, but I would like to a little bit, especially the base. I'm kind of a newbie myself. What exactly is a grow box????? Those planting boxes I've seen people use that are made out of wood? Or what?

 

[Cypress]

Growbox?

Ok, scratch that, I definitely do want to fatten that trunk up. Fill me in on this grow box thing.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

A grow box can be what you described, a homemade box of wood that is larger than a bonsai pot to allow roots to grow freely and thereby allowing the tree to develop more quickly than in a bonsai pot. Another option is a pond basket or training pot which is basically a large pot (much larger than a usual bonsai pot) that is not too deep but has many holes in it. (If the pot is too deep, the roots will grow straight down and then out which is the opposite of what we want for nebari development).

When used with bonsai soil, these pots speed growth because they allow for free drainage and do a great job of getting oxygen to the roots. Roots that can breath and drink are happy roots and grow vigorously thus speeding the development, especially if the goal is trunk thickening. Think of it as controlled ground growing. Instead of using the ground to speed growth, you give the root system the space that it needs to develop while keeping it contained and manageable. These also allow you to develop the desirable fine feeder roots because the tree is in bonsai soil.

Look at the links below for some examples:

http://www.weetree.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=970

http://www.menards.com/main/outdoor...tains/10-planter-basket/p-1735297-c-10121.htm

I hope that was helpful.

 

[Cypress]

!!!!

Is that what anderson flats are used for? Growing boxes? I have no idead how to by one of those though... I did try to find a pond basket at lowes a while back for a juniper project but the only one they had was tiny.

Ok so from your link... 17 inch training flat... will the little holes in it be big enough for my bonsai soil to fall through?? Or no?

Though I think building my own out of wood would be fun.

 

[Cypress]

But my main concern is my bonsai soil falling through the holes? I'm using a mixture of turface, perlite, bark, sometimes granite grit. I'm a noob so experimenting with my soils.

I'd like to assume the holes are small enough to accomodate bonsai growers, instead of having to screen the whole thing lol.

 

[Cypress]

p.s. I just LOVE the movement in this trunk. Thought I'd share my excitement.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

Assuming that you are sifting your soil down to the appropriate size (1/8-1/4") your soil should not have an issue falling through. Honestly, anything that falls through these holes is probably a good thing because it is smaller than is desirable for raising bonsai anyway. There should be few if any particles smaller than 1/8" in your soil.

It's actually ideal to have a drainage layer on the bottom that is sifted to 1/4-3/8" and the rest to be 1/8-1/4". This should give ideal aeration to the roots while still retaining enough water.

In terms of soil, consider using lava rock. It is very course and retains water well but will not break down meaning it can be re-used for a long time. Knowing this helps to compensate for the higher price. Turface is a decent and cheep medium but will break down over time and when used in bonsai pots can create a paste at the bottom that inhibits drainage. If you choose to use turface, know that you will have to repot more often...probably every 2 years, and rinse the roots very well so that this paste does not inhibit their ability to "breath".

Here is a link for the cheapest lava rock I have found:
http://www.weetree.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=977

Weetree also distributes pumice and akadama.

Many bonsai soil mixes use various percentages of lava rock, pumice and akadama. You can add a little pine bark but this will again break down and can inhibit drainage. The use of bark is dependent on how moist your want your soil and how much time you have to water although I would not recommend using it very much with conifers as they prefer to not have their "feet wet".

It's best to continue to experiment and discover what works best for you. There are hundreds of different soil opinions out there but the most important thing is finding a mix that works with your climate, your budget, your availability (how often you can water), and keeps your trees happy.

Good luck!

 

[MidMichBonsai]

Is that what anderson flats are used for? Growing boxes? I have no idead how to by one of those though... I did try to find a pond basket at lowes a while back for a juniper project but the only one they had was tiny.

Ok so from your link... 17 inch training flat... will the little holes in it be big enough for my bonsai soil to fall through?? Or no?

Though I think building my own out of wood would be fun.

The best way to find a suitable pond basket is to look online. Most larger stores will allow you to search the inventory of any given store to see if the item is available. I found my 10"x10" pond baskets from Menards that way. Doing this before hand can save you a wasted trip!

Also, cheap colanders can be a nice option and often the best place to pick up a plastic colander with good drainage is a local dollar store. Can't beat $1 pot!

 

[Cypress]

Weetree also distributes pumice and akadama.

Many bonsai soil mixes use various percentages of lava rock, pumice and akadama.

Good luck!

I was under the impression that akadama breaks down much much faster than turface. But thanks for the link to the lava rock! I will have to order some for setting up some grow boxes in the spring. I do sift my soil components before mixing them and potting too so. My first couple soil batches I didn't use perlite at all, but I've read a few articles lately suggesting that perlite works wonders for developing fine root system so I think I'm going to incorporate perlite into my soils for a while and se how it goes. (I know it can float to the top, but if you put a thin later of turface and maybe a little sphagnum on the surface, it solves that problem really easily.)

But yea that link to the lava rock is very helpful, as I have no idea where I could buy it around here! Maybe I'll look around before ordering online though, do hydroponic stores carry lava rock ever? I live in a very liberal town... I think we have at least 3 hydroponics stores, hahahaha.

Oh and what stores would carry pumice?

 

[MidMichBonsai]

In short, Akadama breakdown is not an issue because it still allows water to drain in its broken down state. It essentially functions as sand.

Take a look at this article. It should be helpful in identifying the various mediums available and determining which would work best for you.

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html

 

[MidMichBonsai]

But yea that link to the lava rock is very helpful, as I have no idea where I could buy it around here! Maybe I'll look around before ordering online though, do hydroponic stores carry lava rock ever? I live in a very liberal town... I think we have at least 3 hydroponics stores, hahahaha.

Oh and what stores would carry pumice?

Pumice is also available @ weetree.com under soils. Not sure about locally. They are cheep enough that I don't mind getting it from them.

I tried a local hydroponics store for lava rock but was unsuccessful. You may have more success with your local story. The best thing about getting this stuff from bonsai suppliers is that most of the time they have already been sifted to the correct size so you actually get more for your money. It's great when all 3.5 gallons are useable instead of sifting out 1/3 of the material because it's either too big or too small for bonsai.

 

[Cypress]

Hmmm

Lava rock... pumice... akadama... So I'm new to bonsai and my first bonsai soil has been a mixtures of turface, granite grit, and pine bark. The last couple trees I potted I left out the granite grit (because what is it doing in the soil anyway? taking up space? It doesn't hold moisture, but it does help aeration... but so does turface, perlite, and bark and they all hold moisture!!!!!) Granite what the heck. Anyway my most recent has been 2 parts turface, 2 parts perlite, and about 1 part pine bark.

This is a nice little article on the use of perlite as bonsai substrate and it's ability to promote fine root growth: http://lakeshorebonsai.com/?tag=perlite

Can you explain to me why Lava rock, pumice, and akadama are better than my current soil???

I guess on of my main questions is, won't akadama clog draining too once it stars breaking down? Like you said turface would? Though I've read it take a very long time for turface to break down, if it does at all...

 

[drew33998]

Honestly I'n not too concerned with fattening it up alot, but I would like to a little bit, especially the base. I'm kind of a newbie myself. What exactly is a grow box????? Those planting boxes I've seen people use that are made out of wood? Or what?

Yes, that is correct. Or you can go to HD or Lowes and get the square tubs used to mix concrete in. It is in the concrete aisle

 

[MidMichBonsai]

Can you explain to me why Lava rock, pumice, and akadama are better than my current soil???

I guess on of my main questions is, won't akadama clog draining too once it stars breaking down? Like you said turface would? Though I've read it take a very long time for turface to break down, if it does at all...

Lava rock is great because it does well with water retention while still being free draining. It seems to reliably aid in the production of many fine feeder roots. It also does not break down and, because of this, can be reused over and over though it must be washed and allowed to dry before reusing.

Pumic has a very high cec (cationic exchange capacity) which means it is very good at absorbing nutrients for later release (helpful when using a primarily inorganic soil and a fertilizer regimen).

Akadama does breakdown over time but because it is not clay based (like turface), it still has sufficient drainage capacity even in it's broken down state (similar to sand). Akadama is arguably the best medium for creating fine feeder root growth which is essential for the health and vigor of the tree.

Simply put, while there are many soil mixtures out there, many experienced bonsai practitioners use a mixture of these 3 substances with outstanding results. They seem to complement each other well with the pro of one, balancing out the con of another.

As I said in an earlier post, there is no 1 size fits all answer. Experiment, discover, and decide for yourself what you can be most successful with. The best medium for you is one that allows you to achieve stellar results. That being said, an even mix of lava, akadama, and pumice has done just that for many.

Good luck! And let me know what you discover.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

Lava rock... pumice... akadama... So I'm new to bonsai and my first bonsai soil has been a mixtures of turface, granite grit, and pine bark. The last couple trees I potted I left out the granite grit (because what is it doing in the soil anyway? taking up space? It doesn't hold moisture, but it does help aeration... but so does turface, perlite, and bark and they all hold moisture!!!!!) Granite what the heck. Anyway my most recent has been 2 parts turface, 2 parts perlite, and about 1 part pine bark.

This is a nice little article on the use of perlite as bonsai substrate and it's ability to promote fine root growth: http://lakeshorebonsai.com/?tag=perlite

Can you explain to me why Lava rock, pumice, and akadama are better than my current soil???

I guess on of my main questions is, won't akadama clog draining too once it stars breaking down? Like you said turface would? Though I've read it take a very long time for turface to break down, if it does at all...

One more thought. For more than you ever wanted to know about bonsai mediums and why and why nots, check out this article by Graham Potter: http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/choosing_soil_for_bonsai_trees.php#INTRODUCTION

The following paragraphs taken from that article might help answer your question.

"Firstly, let’s consider a tree growing in a nice deep pot in a well chosen quality soil mix. As water passes into the pot it quickly permeates down through the soil, creating a slight vacuum or draw behind it, air is drawn into the soil. A carefully graded soil allows the water to drain to the bottom of the pot where it builds up a little before escaping from the pots drainage holes. Capillary action is weak because the soil has good drainage characteristics, the capillaries formed by the soil grains are large. So a small concentration of water exists at the bottom of the pot but not enough to really trouble the roots. Because the air content of the soil is good, freezing has little detrimental effect as expansion is easily absorbed within the soil yet air circulation is maintained.

Secondly, let’s consider a tree growing in a shallow pot in an old fashioned soil mix like John Innes No2 and grit. Grit (crushed stone) particles are large, hard, cold and not absorbent. John Innes is a soil based mix with a high proportion of sand and clay. The grit within this mix settles into a rigid framework. Over summer during constant watering the soil particles are washed into the pore spaces between the grit. The clay within the soil is broken down and, because the particles are so fine they end up right at the bottom of the pot. Therefore a layer of ultra fine particles or silt form on the base of the pot. The soil above has some drainage and draws air in as water runs out. In summer when roots are stripping water from the soil all works well enough. However in winter because of the very fine composition of the lower layers of soil, capillary action holds a deep layer of liquid at anything up to three quarters of the depth of the pot. In effect the plant will be standing in a puddle. Constant freezing and thawing will destroy the roots of all but the most resilient plants. The result will be very slow poor growth in spring and ultimately very slow development of the bonsai."