My first JBP

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
This came up cheap from a bonsai nursery so I decided to try battle mother nature and took the plunge knowing full well I am climatically challenged.

Hoping to gain experience with double flush pines, which some say can't be done with good results in the UK, I was unsure whether to treat as single or take my chances, it came cut/mostly cut and new buds popping

Branch structure and nebari structure as is
Big crossing root is not 'bothering' me but I know it might,

Not sure what to do with branches can almost see a dome shape if I could thicken up foliage enough?

Any advice?
 

Attachments

  • 20210714_131708.jpg
    20210714_131708.jpg
    87.4 KB · Views: 66
  • 20210714_131737.jpg
    20210714_131737.jpg
    88.5 KB · Views: 67
  • 20210714_131801.jpg
    20210714_131801.jpg
    79.9 KB · Views: 61
  • 20210714_133104.jpg
    20210714_133104.jpg
    103.8 KB · Views: 58
  • 20210714_132117.jpg
    20210714_132117.jpg
    94.1 KB · Views: 57
  • 20210714_132105.jpg
    20210714_132105.jpg
    113.5 KB · Views: 50
  • 20210714_132054.jpg
    20210714_132054.jpg
    124.3 KB · Views: 46
  • 20210714_132032.jpg
    20210714_132032.jpg
    132.7 KB · Views: 41
  • 20210714_132042.jpg
    20210714_132042.jpg
    143 KB · Views: 43

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
Pics of the most vigorous new candles and some of the weakers

Some that maybe weren't cut or were weaker and only gave back needles

Also the most vigorous branch is one of this cluster, I considered removing it to avoid swelling (1 branch see stub was removed by seller)

I do not know strength of tree before so what I see as strongest now may have arrived that way to strengthen weaker areas so I'm reluctant to even candle select currently

Needles are pretty balanced and I think/hope the result of thinning not lack of vigour
 

Attachments

  • 20210714_131846.jpg
    20210714_131846.jpg
    120.8 KB · Views: 35
  • 20210714_131900.jpg
    20210714_131900.jpg
    112.2 KB · Views: 28
  • 20210714_132137.jpg
    20210714_132137.jpg
    96.2 KB · Views: 23
  • 20210714_132021.jpg
    20210714_132021.jpg
    77.8 KB · Views: 20
  • 20210714_132315.jpg
    20210714_132315.jpg
    127.9 KB · Views: 20
  • 20210714_132301.jpg
    20210714_132301.jpg
    115.9 KB · Views: 61

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
If anyone has any experience growing these above the ideal zone i would be very grateful of advice regarding care particularly during winter

My concern is my winter isn't cold enough yet is very wet (even now at the height of summer we have had heavy rainfall between sunny days)

Soil is very course but I'm not sure how/if to protect from heavy rain storms

We have had false start springs' with a little rise in temp quickly followed by much colder than winter and harder frosts around March sometimes (like this year maybe later) with temps just getting into negative numbers
 

Shibui

Masterpiece
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
7,278
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
Why is UK considered a problem with JBP?
They grow profusely down here with very hot summers and mild, wet winters and also do well as far north as Brisbane which is sub-tropical.

Yours is weak but still has reasonable new shoots. I would be feeding heavily all summer and lightly through the winter to build up for next season.
It has been allowed to grow without pruning for too long and now has undesirable bare sections that will be hard to manage. With luck feeding and better sun will see a few back buds on some of the bare parts that you can cut back to eventually. If you cannot get buds you can either learn to graft or design something that makes a feature of long, bare branches.
I would also be looking for a larger grow pot for next season to boost growth and strength.
 

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
I believe it to be a case of people believing 'Peter Warren said they aren't suitable' and I have seen this referenced due to lack of light, variable (unpredictable) weather and too wet. I believe he actually meant that they shouldn't be treated as a two flush pine and it seems practiced here to treat these as single flush. (this tree was decandled so the nursery i got it from obviously disagrees)

Compared to Aus we definitely get less sun but seriously even our summers are largely grey skys and rain.

My own research has a bit of spread in what was stated as ' ideal climate zone' for JBP and I'm not entirely 100% on my climate zone either.

This makes it either just in bounds or slightly over the ideal zone depending on where I read and where I end up being in the zones.

Add to that the pot and not the ground i am just trying to prevent any problems down the line.

my intuition led to me giving some feed yesterday when I was adding my NPK + micro to my other trees so you have settled my doubts!

should I let all the new candles do their thing or should they be thinned to 2?

When I got the pics for this thread and seen in 2D was the first time the thought of semi/cascading the first branch to make use of its length appeared to me

I do prefer cascading conifers but had not considered it for this tree

Bigger pot is no problem, bonus in fact as I was planning on letting it sit another season at least before I even had a peak what was under the soil

So I should repot this late winter/early spring (slip pot as best I can with such course mix)?
 

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
Been reading on here and maybe summer repot is better? And more time with more space, hopefully recover roots before the cold and be ready to grow in spring

Also was thinking of putting it into a colander or similar unless this is a bad idea?

When would be too late for summer repot?
 

Shibui

Masterpiece
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
7,278
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
I have seen a lot of contradictory claims about ideal zones for the different pines. Much of it seems to be someone trying to tell others that their zone is the only one that will grow pines successfully. My feeling is that they should do well for you but that will remain to be seen. It would be very informative to keep updating with progress even though the sample size is small.

Cascade/ semi-cascade appears to be easy but I've found them to be some of the harder styles to get a good result with. Not sure that the long, thin, bare lower branch will give you a satisfying result but you can see the tree in person so you are welcome to try it if you think you have the skills.

Leave the new candles for now. Let the tree recover some strength while it can. I don't usually thin out regrowth candles until end of autumn anyway and that only applies to trees and branches that I am planning to retain as part of the final design. Much of what you currently see here is likely to be removed in coming years to get a better, more compact tree. The more strength you can give to those branches the better the response will be when you do any further cut backs. Normally after decandling a mature tree we would not fertilize until the candles had matured and opened fully - late summer but that's only to restrict length and size of needles. Your tree is not up to that stage yet. I think it needs as much health and vitality as possible for future work which is likely to be quite demanding to reduce the length of those bare branches.

I have not attempted summer repot with any pines down here so can't make comment on pros and cons. I read that many experienced growers have moved to late summer/early autumn repotting, especially with conifers and find that timing successful. From what I gather, late summer is the preferred timing so roots can regrow before cold weather. The exact timings seem to vary depending on how long and how cold the winter is in their location. For us with mild winters it may prove to be possible to repot gently any time. My feeling is that it would be OK for you to repot now but that decision is totally up to you.
It probably comes down to whether you are doing a full repot or just easing the roots into a larger pot without really removing any. The latter can be done almost any time of year.

I've moved away from open pots like colanders. Lots of claims that they grow well in them but I don't seem to be able to keep water up to containers exposed to air on all sides during our summer heat. Your conditions are very different. If you go ahead and it proves less than ideal the colander can be part buried in a larger container for protection with the additional bonus that fine roots have more space but are still restricted from thickening by the mesh.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,071
Reaction score
32,611
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Been reading on here and maybe summer repot is better? And more time with more space, hopefully recover roots before the cold and be ready to grow in spring

Also was thinking of putting it into a colander or similar unless this is a bad idea?

When would be too late for summer repot?
Repot in late winter/early spring.

Spring growth produces the hormone auxin. Auxin travels down to the roots, and stimulates root growth.

Therefore, early spring is the best time to repot JBP.

Can you get away with repotting at other times? Probably. But are those other times as optimum as early spring? No.

Especially since your climate in the UK is not ideal for JBP. Repotting at a non-optimum time is adding additional stress to what is already a stressor (repotting) to the tree.
 

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
Thank you I will just continue to feed weekly my usual thoughts process is I try to vary the feed I use and have sought out wide range of micros also

I also have a algae/kelp foliar feed I had held off when I was treating this tree as just decandled

I admit I thought timing was wrong to be a case of thinned needles but it looks fairly balanced in a needle sense just a few branches not as vigorous with new bud growth

I mentioned above the UK folk who question jbp here seem to mostly be referring to 'when treated as a two flush pine'

I am now turning away from refinement techniques and focusing on chasing back growth, I expected these to be the same until I watched the Ryan Neil part 1 pines video which really confused me, I understand the concept of leaving the tree to build vigour but I believe my tree was left to grow too long

All but the longest first branch and maybe the mid trunk are not that long, I imagine greater success with these, how do I let them grow but not end up where the first branch is?
 

Shibui

Masterpiece
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
7,278
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
All but the longest first branch and maybe the mid trunk are not that long, I imagine greater success with these, how do I let them grow but not end up where the first branch is?
A perennial question by new pine owners who have purchased pines from those who have finally realized it is far too late to recover from the lack of technique.

All is not lost. I believe I have made something from a coupe of JBP that were well past their best.
Firs option: Build strength then cut as hard as possible and cross fingers that buds form on the bare wood.
Second option: Graft new shots in selected locations.
Third option: Wire and bend long branches to compact the long bare sections and bring live growth to where it is needed then build ramification.

I've spent nearly 10 years and used all 3 of these in rebuilding a couple of my earliest black pines but still building final ramification.
Much easier to start with something that has not got out of hand.

First build healthy and vigorous trees. That may take 1 or 2 years and will unfortunately result in even longer bare sections as the oldest needles die and drop but that's inevitable as far as I can work out. Just need to hope for a good result when the tree is stronger and chopped hard. Pruning to older needles now is an option but will reduce strength even more and is probably counterproductive.
 

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
It was very cheap anyway so its practice material but if it proves to cope well in my micro climate I hope to have better in future

I want to start some seedlings anyway, but is there a way to propagate these to use genetic clones or is this unnecessary?

I suppose if the full final foliage was to be grafted there is the temptation (climate allowing) to use JWP foliage?


There are some buds a bit lower back, they don't seem very strong, but they are growing we are getting the best light and record heat this week and its in full sun with newest bare wood exposed, I am noticing needles on at least 1 branch i didn't see any on at first

Does the needles overcrowding each other and poking at the candles mean I should be wiring or anything? Not eager to work it I have plenty of other trees and the heat is keeping me busy enough watering! I have gave this tree my best full sun spot it is the last to be shaded, want to set it up for the best chance to surprise me
 

Shibui

Masterpiece
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
7,278
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
Until recently it was considered that pines could not be grown as cuttings but a few persistent individuals have found that cuttings are possible though strike rate is low for mature wood. Better rates if you can get juvenile shoots or take cuttings from young seedlings. More on both on Shibui Bonsai blog. Seed is much easier and more reliable if you can get seed.

Grafting white pine is certainly possible but there is a big difference in bark so graft location is much more critical when using white pine on black stock. White pine grafts also means that all branches would need to be grafted. Grafting itself back on means you can still utilize any useful branches you already have and approach grafting is much more reliable for beginners. White pine is also single flush so needs a different maintenance regime if you ever get to that stage.

I did not spot any small buds in the pics but if they are already there that's a bonus. In my experience those small buds don't usually grow much while there are stronger apical shoots but if the branches are chopped right back to tiny buds the whole branch can die. I have had success by making sure the branch is strong then chop to the lowest healthy needles which still allows sap movement but also forces the tree to activate all possible new shoots, including the existing small ones. When they are growing better the branch can be further reduced to make those shoots the main branch.

Not sure what you mean by needles crowding each other and wiring. At this stage I would concentrate on getting the whole tree strong. That means fertilize, give it the best possible conditions and leave as much growth as possible for food and energy production. No point wiring until you have a plan for style and that can't really happen until you have better growth. All needles contribute to the tree's health and energy harvesting capability so I would leave them all to develop through this summer. Any candles can grow through older needles without our help.
 

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
Sorry I mean the branches are so close that the needles of one branch are poking into the candles and needles of the next branch getting into their space and its a bit of a tangle

I was thinking less wiring for design more for giving each one its space
 

Shibui

Masterpiece
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
7,278
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
Personally I would not bother but opening it up to get better light to all areas may have some benefit. Just be really gentle. Wiring can be traumatic and the tree does not want trauma at this stage.
 

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
The tree is putting growth into the new candles and some back buds are visible in a few branches

One has no candles so I would be happy to chop this

One had two fairly strong candles so I would be less brave without knowing it could make up energy

Can techniques be carried out on 1 or 2 branches or is it an all or nothing thing due to balance?

now seeing the long branch as a possibility to use for approach grafts, not sure how flexible it is at the moment leaving it to enjoy the sun and doing my best to keep it watered in record breaking UK heatwave, starting to understand why people feed these weakly with watering this is the best draining soil I have ever had
 

BobbyLane

Masterpiece
Messages
4,247
Reaction score
13,126
Location
London, England
This came up cheap from a bonsai nursery so I decided to try battle mother nature and took the plunge knowing full well I am climatically challenged.

Hoping to gain experience with double flush pines, which some say can't be done with good results in the UK, I was unsure whether to treat as single or take my chances, it came cut/mostly cut and new buds popping

Branch structure and nebari structure as is
Big crossing root is not 'bothering' me but I know it might,

Not sure what to do with branches can almost see a dome shape if I could thicken up foliage enough?

Any advice?
With that said, what made you gravitate towards a JBP? i honestly know nothing about pines, im just curious, you just like pines in general, where did the inspiration come from?
 

RoadManDenDron

Yamadori
Messages
60
Reaction score
33
Location
England UK
USDA Zone
8b9
the perfect person to ask the question for sure!

I spend a lot of time reading and watching videos and I have quite a few different deciduous natives and a few junipers to experiment on

I like the back story of the double flush pines and the 'secret' technique but as usual with the net I was back and forth with information and had all but forgotten about jbp,

Then you yourself come in believe it or not! you sent someone on here to the bargain basement at kaizen and the pine was in a bundle I got with a hazel when I really wanted examples of natives to practice on for when my (now second year) ground projects are ready and this should let me keep them in the ground longer without being to keen to get them out and practice leaf reduction/ apex building etc

Now the seller has been named I want to be clear I am very happy with the purchase for the price and any critique offered by experienced members has been fairly accounted for in the price IMO
 

JackHammer

Mame
Messages
180
Reaction score
186
Location
North Eastern Ohio
I am working on my first JBP and the biggest issue for me has been too much water. We had a wetter than normal spring and even without watering, I was getting lots of yellow needles. For me, I have had the best luck with the plant slip potted into a burlap bag and placed on top of a colander.
 

Potawatomi13

Masterpiece
Messages
4,279
Reaction score
2,908
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8
Several things to notice:
Definite beginner tree/little/nothing of use above lowest branch except to develop trunk size.
1. Straight boring trunk. Trunk is everything,foundation of whole tree
2. Stovepipe trunk/no taper
3. too thin anemic trunk

When repot(Spring,Spring,Spring)comes plant into ground or grow box, use upper leader to grow out and thicken trunk several years. Allow to grow 10-12 feet tall until trunk is size desired. Grow in full Sun area. Plan on lowest branch becoming new trunk. Using adequately large wire bend this to future desired design In Fall/Winter. AFTER recovered from repot get help from local Guru to help develop lower branch/future tree. Do not wire over any needles.
 
Last edited:

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
12,719
Reaction score
37,628
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
I am working on my first JBP and the biggest issue for me has been too much water. We had a wetter than normal spring and even without watering, I was getting lots of yellow needles. For me, I have had the best luck with the plant slip potted into a burlap bag and placed on top of a colander.
This doesn’t seem sustainable. Burlap will rot, and trees need to be in stable containers so the roots can establish. You’ll want to get it in a proper container, in proper soil, at the proper time. JBP can take lots of rain in the right soil, but you can kill them easily with the wrong conditions.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Cajunrider Cjr JBP #2 next step? Pines 0
Moridin JBP Numero Uno Pines 1
Cajunrider Cjr JBP#1 next step? Pines 9
Mame-Mo Shohin JBP I got from the exhibition. Pines 22
Y Conifer division. Myth’s JBP from seed. The 2021 Shohin Contest from Starter Material 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom