My first trident maple

eugenev2

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Hi All,

I bought the following trident maple about 7/8 months ago from a nursery with the aim to eventually make it a bonsai. Most of the time growing bonsai is spent growing the trunk, so i decided to hopefully short circuit the process by a few years and buy a bigish tree. Not too big to fit in a pot, but not to small that it would not really shave off any years. The tree is about 2 meters tall (sorry using metric here) and base above extremely thick sideways growth/root is about 5/6cm wide
 

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eugenev2

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So i'm treating this tree as a learning experiment tree (although i hope not to kill it) and want to use it to learn a number of techniques which would be airlayering and grafting as i've read the respond well to both techniques. So depending on the tree health i want to start airlayering this tree in the next 6 to 8 weeks depending on tree health and whether foliage has hardened off.
So i would like to get advice and opinions on the plans i have for the tree.
Plan A was to layer where the green and yellow lines are, to eventually use these airlayerings as scions for the grafting, but others suggested to rather get a few saplings to the right age for this purpose.
Plan B is to airlayer at the teal/blue line and hopefully get a semi interesting little tree out of it.
Final plans is once airlayering is completed to cut down to the red line to start the bonsai process.
Any advice and or opinions?
 

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eugenev2

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Regarding the grafting (not sure what this approach is called) , but i was thinking of grafting scions on the orange line and on the opposite side to both thicken the trunk and balance out the somewhat lopsided root. I was also considering adding a scion on the yellow line. Does anyone have any experience with this, does it actually shave off a few years on trunk growing or does it create a unnatural shape/bulging?
 

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Shibui

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Most of the time growing bonsai is spent growing the trunk
I've found that thickening the trunk is the quickest part of developing bonsai. Much more time is spent healing chops and developing branching and ramification. You may have cut 2-3 years off starting from seed but I'd guess the roots and pole trunk will add 3-5 years onto the project over a trunk that was developed more carefully.

Layering is of the most oft suggested panacea for anything bonsai but IMHO it is more often a waste of time. If you can get cheap seedlings they will graft roots just as easily and you can start immediately instead of next year.
The blue layer line appears to target a fork in the trunk which may give a reasonable start to another trunk but I don't think the shape of that fork is as good as you hope.

Your proposed chop (red line) appears to be quite high up the current trunk. How tall do you plan to make the bonsai? To get good trunk taper, good bends in the trunk and good branch placement I find it better to make the initial chop around 1/3 of the anticipated height as we need quite a bit of growth above the chop to heal the wound and make the final apex.

I have grafted quite few roots on tridents. Sometimes it works really well but there's often a scar left after removing the top of the seedling after graft has taken so you should allow for that in your time lines too.
I have not tried thickening a trunk by grafting onto the outside but I have done some trails with fusing seedlings together. Not every one ends up looking great so I would not pin all my hopes on one single try.

Good luck with your trident.
 

eugenev2

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I've found that thickening the trunk is the quickest part of developing bonsai. Much more time is spent healing chops and developing branching and ramification. You may have cut 2-3 years off starting from seed but I'd guess the roots and pole trunk will add 3-5 years onto the project over a trunk that was developed more carefully.

Layering is of the most oft suggested panacea for anything bonsai but IMHO it is more often a waste of time. If you can get cheap seedlings they will graft roots just as easily and you can start immediately instead of next year.
The blue layer line appears to target a fork in the trunk which may give a reasonable start to another trunk but I don't think the shape of that fork is as good as you hope.

Your proposed chop (red line) appears to be quite high up the current trunk. How tall do you plan to make the bonsai? To get good trunk taper, good bends in the trunk and good branch placement I find it better to make the initial chop around 1/3 of the anticipated height as we need quite a bit of growth above the chop to heal the wound and make the final apex.

I have grafted quite few roots on tridents. Sometimes it works really well but there's often a scar left after removing the top of the seedling after graft has taken so you should allow for that in your time lines too.
I have not tried thickening a trunk by grafting onto the outside but I have done some trails with fusing seedlings together. Not every one ends up looking great so I would not pin all my hopes on one single try.

Good luck with your trident.
O that's interesting, i knew chops took a long time...especially larger ones, but regarding the trunk thickening not taking the longest, is this specific to faster growing species like the trident maple or does this apply to slower growing species as well?

So the layering bit is more of exercise of learning, as i've read most of the literature but have never applied it and the way i see it i would rather try this out on a bunch of cheap $20 trees then trying it the first time on a $1000 tree (doubtful it would be needed, but people are crazy)

Yes, so i realize the red line is high, in my heart i would love this tree to be 1m tall, but realistically i live in a small apartment, so big trees like that won't work, realistically i'm thinking it would be about a 50cm tree possibly 30cm. So i choose that spot as it is the lowest point that still has a branch and leaves, as i'm not confident enough to make a complete trunk chop with no available shoots. I was hoping this would be a nice stop gap approach to cut it and then if additional shoots appear lower cut again

Ok, great to know it is a possibility at least, rather than just wild hubris. I'll have to see if i can find some sapling from a nursery or somewhere, but this is going to be tricky, as i've noticed that nurseries here tend to not sell their saplings often, as obviously they cannot charge as much as they do for a full grown tree
 

SeanS

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dbonsaiw

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Most of the time growing bonsai is spent growing the trunk, so i decided to hopefully short circuit the process by a few years and buy a bigish tree.
Welcome. My first trees were purchased with the same sentiment in mind. After spending some time with these trees, I have come to the same conclusion that Shibui advised you of - what you gain in time savings from a thicker trunk is lost in reworking the trunk and nebari. I'm always on the look out for a larger trunk, but nowadays I will also require some lower movement at the very least so that time is actually saved.

Rather than focus too much on the nurseries and big box stores, there are vendors (at least state side) that sell ground grown trees with larger trunks that have been growing with bonsai in mind.
I've found that thickening the trunk is the quickest part of developing bonsai.
Probably most depressing thing I've heard all day.
 

eugenev2

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Welcome. My first trees were purchased with the same sentiment in mind. After spending some time with these trees, I have come to the same conclusion that Shibui advised you of - what you gain in time savings from a thicker trunk is lost in reworking the trunk and nebari. I'm always on the look out for a larger trunk, but nowadays I will also require some lower movement at the very least so that time is actually saved.

Rather than focus too much on the nurseries and big box stores, there are vendors (at least state side) that sell ground grown trees with larger trunks that have been growing with bonsai in mind.

Probably most depressing thing I've heard all day.
@dbonsaiw
O dear this is not good news, i'll have to keep an eye out for stores that grow trees with bonsai in mind.

But also keep in mind in my second post i mentioned that i'm treating this as a learning tree, to learn how much trunk/root i can cut before it dies, which soil works in what size container for my climate, how to airlayer, grafting and a number of other techniques.
 

Shibui

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O that's interesting, i knew chops took a long time...especially larger ones, but regarding the trunk thickening not taking the longest, is this specific to faster growing species like the trident maple or does this apply to slower growing species as well?
It's not about how fast the tree grows. It is about how long the repairs take after a massive trunk chop. Developing trunk taper, branches and good ramification typically takes far longer than the initial growing trunk to thickness and that is regardless of whether the tree grows quick or slow. Obviously slower growing species will take even longer for the final stages.

But also keep in mind in my second post i mentioned that i'm treating this as a learning tree, to learn how much trunk/root i can cut before it dies, which soil works in what size container for my climate, how to airlayer, grafting and a number of other techniques.
This is a very good approach for starting out. After reading internet posts some people are convinced that every attempt results in a first class bonsai. Unfortunately, I've found there's so much that can go wrong through the years and different stages so not getting too attached is a good plan.
There's also no problem with layering any old branches to get some experience. Then when something really worth while comes along you'll be ready to take advantage.
 

eugenev2

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It's not about how fast the tree grows. It is about how long the repairs take after a massive trunk chop. Developing trunk taper, branches and good ramification typically takes far longer than the initial growing trunk to thickness and that is regardless of whether the tree grows quick or slow. Obviously slower growing species will take even longer for the final stages.


This is a very good approach for starting out. After reading internet posts some people are convinced that every attempt results in a first class bonsai. Unfortunately, I've found there's so much that can go wrong through the years and different stages so not getting too attached is a good plan.
There's also no problem with layering any old branches to get some experience. Then when something really worth while comes along you'll be ready to take advantage.
@Shibui after the advice provided and seeing @SeanS's amazing progress with tridents in only two years. I decided that these will be my future trident bonsai. Wanted to use them as scions for the big one, but now they'll be the "main" focus, but keeping the redundancy to try different approaches ie different soil, ground growing vs pot growing. Although still keeping big one for more radical experiments. Hoping my second batch takes off so that i have scions for grafting.
 

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eugenev2

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First air layering attempts completed this past weekend, layering was done 6 weeks ago, so might have been removed a bit to early. But the plastic was completely filled with roots and as we are having a bit milder weather the last few days i'm hoping the roots will be strong enough to support them. Forgot to take pictures of the roots and tree before severing...oi...o well. Also did some major foliage cut back to make life easier for the roots...fingers crossed.
 

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eugenev2

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@Shibui after the advice provided and seeing @SeanS's amazing progress with tridents in only two years. I decided that these will be my future trident bonsai. Wanted to use them as scions for the big one, but now they'll be the "main" focus, but keeping the redundancy to try different approaches ie different soil, ground growing vs pot growing. Although still keeping big one for more radical experiments. Hoping my second batch takes off so that i have scions for grafting.
These future little bonsais are coming along nicely as well. They grow up so fast
 

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eugenev2

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First air layering attempts completed this past weekend, layering was done 6 weeks ago, so might have been removed a bit to early. But the plastic was completely filled with roots and as we are having a bit milder weather the last few days i'm hoping the roots will be strong enough to support them. Forgot to take pictures of the roots and tree before severing...oi...o well. Also did some major foliage cut back to make life easier for the roots...fingers crossed.
About 3 weeks later and the airlayerings are all pushing out new leaves. Trident maples are amazing they grow really strong
 

eugenev2

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Some updated pics on the trident maple progress. Hard to believe pic 1 and 2 are from the batch i posted about the 17th of August
 

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eugenev2

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Only 7 months later and they've grown so much. Tallest went from about inch to over 3 feet!!! Also learned how badly fungal issues can set you back, smallest one has had a rough ride, which hopefully is over now
 

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eugenev2

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These are my first airlayerings and i'm going to say i think they were a success. They were meant as a experiment to learn about airlayering, but i think the one actually has potential as a bonsai
 

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eugenev2

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Parent tree is also doing well, cannot wait for further experiments
 

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