My Formal Upright Trident, naked as can be

[kthehun89]

Hey friends!

This is my trident maple! Recently picked up from Kimura Bonsai outside LA, they defoliated it then and there as it was quite due for it. Tree has some nice movement, and has decent work done with it already. The tree is quite tall, at 26" from soil to apex, and the trunk is 4.5 inches at its widest. I love the tree, and I have noted 2 areas of work. Firstly, some pictures.









some nebari


other side






So, firstly I think that working on the roots and nebari can be a very positive thing for the tree. It is a trident, and I know some root combing and placing on a piece of slate in a shallow box will do the trick. The tree has decent taper, can be better though. The tree has some cool roots buried, and I'll inspect them at a later time.

Secondly, and probably the most active correction will be to deal with the bulbous scar in one of the curves of the tree. In the following pictures I have circled the areas that I want to improve.





I plan on taking the very top segment and creating a new apex while using the top material as a graft onto the area I want to fix.



Basically I would shorten it by 4" and allow for the graft to help the area that isn't too pretty. Here is a very rough virtual.



Let me know what you guys think!

 

[Ris]

If it were my tree... Air layer where you pointed out the branch in red and get two trees but basically start this tree from scratch by placing in ground and work on its development.

Rishi.

 

[kthehun89]

That was my second idea! In boxes though.

 

[bonsaibp]

Thanks for the purchase.
I think that airlaying is a good suggestion. The top of this has much more movement then the bottom.
The bar-b-que may not be the coolest place for it.

 

[wireme]

Possibly air layer around the problem area in red and start development of a broom style with the lower section?

 

[Smoke]

Hey friends!

....we defoliated it then and there as it was quite due for it..
Let me know what you guys think!

What exactly determines this thinking?

 

[kthehun89]

What exactly determines this thinking?

Hot weeks had scorched most of the leaves. The were quote large as well last time I saw the tree, so the reasoning is sound.

 

[evmibo]

From my point of view/reasoning: You've already mentioned that the nebari needs improvements and there are some less desirable branches still present. Complete leaf defoliation is counter-active to correcting both of these and will lengthen their development. I would have (and still do) suggested afternoon shade.

 

[mc4mc44]

From my point of view/reasoning: You've already mentioned that the nebari needs improvements and there are some less desirable branches still present. Complete leaf defoliation is counter-active to correcting both of these and will lengthen their development. I would have (and still do) suggested afternoon shade.

I agree with this, if the tree still needed so much work, why worry about something like leaf size? That's something to worry about with a finished tree.

 

[kthehun89]

Mid summer defoliation has been a benefit to my few tridents, but this defoliation wasn't done by me but by the nursery, so I can't argue with that. All of you have made great points, but I should have framed my ideas better. Nothing more is happening to this tree this year. Depending on the health of it next year, I may pursue an airlayer of the red area, creating another smaller tree. After I have separated the two trees, perhaps 2015, I will focus on development of nebari and the trunk further on both trees. I don't have free soil to put them in, so grow boxes will do. Tridents work well in growth boxes so I'm not worried about that. After I get the nebari, roots, and trunk to where I would like on both trees, I will refine the look of them. Larger mother tree will continue as a formal upright and I haven't decided what to do with the air layer.

Thanks for the awesome ideas and criticism. Also, all my maples are in 70% shade now after the scorching happening around here.

 

[marcosolo]

Shaking My Head

Tree needs to be shortened dramatically...Put em in the ground and chop him back in the spring and DONT defoliate....Defoliation may seem fun because of those little tiny leaves you get, but thats not the main purpose of the practice...Increased ramification and slowing of growth on more established trees really is the function of defoliation...You have no branches to ramify from, so why in the world would you defoliate? And leaves make food, which make things thicker, so why in the world would you defoliate?.....Just listen instead of insisting that your procedure was sound, especially when it's not.....

 

[kthehun89]

Tree needs to be shortened dramatically...Put em in the ground and chop him back in the spring and DONT defoliate....Defoliation may seem fun because of those little tiny leaves you get, but thats not the main purpose of the practice...Increased ramification and slowing of growth on more established trees really is the function of defoliation...You have no branches to ramify from, so why in the world would you defoliate? And leaves make food, which make things thicker, so why in the world would you defoliate?.....Just listen instead of insisting that your procedure was sound, especially when it's not.....

May I point out again that I didn't defoliate it. I purchased it as such. Perhaps shaking your head has caused you to miss read my posts.

Also. I don't want to shorten the tree considerably. I will be creating 2 trees from this one, which completely changes the game.

Thanks for your blunt response.

 

[marcosolo]

May I point out again that I didn't defoliate it. I purchased it as such. Perhaps shaking your head has caused you to miss read my posts.

Also. I don't want to shorten the tree considerably. I will be creating 2 trees from this one, which completely changes the game.

Thanks for your blunt response.

I didn't bother to read them.... I just saw the pictures and put my head on agitate....My apologies for the spoon-like demeanor, it was just so silly to see that with petioles bare...

 

[Smoke]

Hey friends!

This is my trident maple! Recently picked up from Kimura Bonsai outside LA, they defoliated it then and there as it was quite due for it. Tree has some nice movement, and has decent work done with it already. The tree is quite tall, at 26" from soil to apex, and the trunk is 4.5 inches at its widest. I love the tree, and I have noted 2 areas of work. Firstly, some pictures.
Basically I would shorten it by 4" and allow for the graft to help the area that isn't too pretty. Here is a very rough virtual.

Let me know what you guys think!

Originally Posted by kthehun89

Hey friends!

....we defoliated it then and there as it was quite due for it..
Let me know what you guys think!

What exactly determines this thinking?

Tree needs to be shortened dramatically...Put em in the ground and chop him back in the spring and DONT defoliate....Defoliation may seem fun because of those little tiny leaves you get, but thats not the main purpose of the practice...Increased ramification and slowing of growth on more established trees really is the function of defoliation...You have no branches to ramify from, so why in the world would you defoliate? And leaves make food, which make things thicker, so why in the world would you defoliate?.....Just listen instead of insisting that your procedure was sound, especially when it's not.....

May I point out again that I didn't defoliate it. I purchased it as such. Perhaps shaking your head has caused you to miss read my posts.

Also. I don't want to shorten the tree considerably. I will be creating 2 trees from this one, which completely changes the game.

Thanks for your blunt response.

When I used part of your quote earlier you said "we".... now you have edited it to say "THEY".

It's OK to tell the truth...there are no bonsai police.

There are numerous defoliation threads recently. Read some of them and you will understand why this did nothing except get you new leaves and put the tree behind for a year this late in the season.

Posts like this sadden me cause people are truly trying to help and you want a pat on the back for a job done poorly in the wrong time of the year on a tree not really ready for anything related to bonsai to be done with it.

That blunt enough for you?

 

[bonsaibp]

Wow you guys are tough. The tree was defoliated by me to make it saleable- the foliage was fried from a string of 108F+ days. Yes you're right the tree is not ready for defoliation for the reason of decreasing leaf size or increasing ramification. It was done because no one would want to buy a tree with all the leaves fried.Period. It's not suposed to be a refined piece at this time but rather a piece of partialy trained stock to be worked on and developed by its new owner.

 

[marcosolo]

When I used part of your quote earlier you said "we".... now you have edited it to say "THEY".

It's OK to tell the truth...there are no bonsai police.

There are numerous defoliation threads recently. Read some of them and you will understand why this did nothing except get you new leaves and put the tree behind for a year this late in the season.

Posts like this sadden me cause people are truly trying to help and you want a pat on the back for a job done poorly in the wrong time of the year on a tree not really ready for anything related to bonsai to be done with it.

That blunt enough for you?

My Champion Appears!!!!!!...lmfaooooo

 

[kthehun89]

Jeez, I guess it's hard to get much right here. I have been visiting Kimura on the weekends for sometime now and have been looking at their maples. Our hot SoCal scortch did allot of aesthetic damage to allot of people's trees, and I was watching that happen with some of their tridents. Spoke with Jorge for some about them, and when I went back last weekend he had just defoliated it. Sorry that I used we to phrase my initial statement, I just felt a minor connection with it since I have been eyeing it for a while. I bought it because I can, liked the possibilities it held, and frankly just liked what I saw. I understand the confusion, but I still think the responses garnered aren't conducive to any optimism.

You guys say there is no bonsai police but I am having my statements evaluated and my method was attacked worse than Rodney King. I understand that defoliation at this point was counter productive, but why is that an issue when I have pointed out that I will be creating multiple trees from this one indicating much refinement. I kno the tree has its freaking faults, but I plan on doing my best to work with it and correct them. I appreciate the conversation so far, but only ask that we focus on what will be done not what has been done.

We all have to take a few steps back in order to improve something, and this holds especially true with bonsai.

I won't update or post anymore about this thread until I have made the big changes. May e then we can have a decent discussion lacking attacking me or the tree.

 

[evmibo]

For what it's worth, I wasn't trying to attack you or be tough. I was responding to your original posts, and was under the impression that you had defoliated the tree after acquisition. Best of luck with the tree.

 

[kthehun89]

It's all good, I did need to be more clear that I didn't do the work, but I did agree with it being done considering the shape of the leaves before. I'm down in San Diego which is much much cooler, and have the tree with my other maples in the shade. They are hard to keep out here, but I'm by the coast and I have a great spot for them, and what I have is thriving. This tree has a long way to go, obviously, but I personally think it's going to be fun air layering it at the first knot and then working with two different trees.

Tree is looking good for what it's worth. I suspect new leaves to be out in a few weeks. Nothing else is happening to it this year. We'll talk about air layering in later winter

K

 

[Smoke]

Jeez, I guess it's hard to get much right here. I have been visiting Kimura on the weekends for sometime now and have been looking at their maples. Our hot SoCal scortch did allot of aesthetic damage to allot of people's trees, and I was watching that happen with some of their tridents. Spoke with Jorge for some about them, and when I went back last weekend he had just defoliated it. Sorry that I used we to phrase my initial statement, I just felt a minor connection with it since I have been eyeing it for a while. I bought it because I can, liked the possibilities it held, and frankly just liked what I saw. I understand the confusion, but I still think the responses garnered aren't conducive to any optimism.

You guys say there is no bonsai police but I am having my statements evaluated and my method was attacked worse than Rodney King. I understand that defoliation at this point was counter productive, but why is that an issue when I have pointed out that I will be creating multiple trees from this one indicating much refinement. I kno the tree has its freaking faults, but I plan on doing my best to work with it and correct them. I appreciate the conversation so far, but only ask that we focus on what will be done not what has been done.

We all have to take a few steps back in order to improve something, and this holds especially true with bonsai.

I won't update or post anymore about this thread until I have made the big changes. May e then we can have a decent discussion lacking attacking me or the tree.

Just to be clear....WORDS MEAN THINGS. This thread was started with letting everyone know you bought a tree from a nursery. You said we defoliated You said it was due. I questioned it. Nothing was said that the tree was defoliated by the seller of the tree in an effort to make it more salable.

This was your reply to my question:

Hot weeks had scorched most of the leaves. The were quote large as well last time I saw the tree, so the reasoning is sound.

You intimated that the leaves were quote large (probably quite) so your reasoning was that it was done with gaining a reduction in leaf size thru defoliating. Remember at this point we hadn't heard from Bob yet.

Some others also questioned the defoliation and then you went off on everyone and became sarcastic about some of the posts. People here were giving you very good information based on what YOU told them. My remarks about the bonsai police had to due with no one putting you in jail here. Just be honest.

There are many good threads here about chopping, grafting building taper, almost anything you can think of about a trident has been written about here at this forum. Much of it with some of the best photos anywhere.

Here is what you said back on June 24th on a pine thread you started:

Anywho, enjoy the pics. Please comment and critique!!! I want to leaaaarrrnnnnn

If you come to a forum and ask for help and then poo poo all the help, you won't get too far. Be clear,consise and state all the facts and this place can be a wealth of information. Treat people like dirtbags and they will run you out of town on a rail....

I been around a long time...why do you think I asked the question in the first place? I got excatly what I knew I would.