My Latest Indoor Greenhouse

[Redwood Ryan]

So, I'm a complete newb on the whole bonsai thing...but, I'm a hort. major, I do love my plants and know a decent amount about them and their physiology..

First, as far as the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" thought (redwood ryan), I can certainly see where you're coming from...but, with this..you ain't gonna break anything by adding some co2..I can promise you that and have used it in the past quite a bit.. Consider that in the normal air that we breathe, CO2 levels are about 350ppm. In an enclosed space with lots of plants, CO2 levels can be greatly depleted during the respiration process. I'm sure that everything about the way bonsai are grown minimizes this...but, the fact remains that plants will use it up in small, contained spaces and depending on how much plant material and the volume of the space, it sometimes absolutely must be added..and generally is a great benefit and causes accelerated growth...which I would think in bonsai could be extremely useful...basically would "age" the tree faster..

Now, even if your plants are not depleting the levels in the room...that does not mean they wouldn't like more.. As I said above, co2 is typically around 350 ppm in the air we breathe...many plants are able to USE CO2 at levels up to 1500ppm or even a bit more... Many plants will grow faster by 1/3 or more..some are able to synthesize the CO2 for themselves (C4 plants) to maximum efficiency and do not benefit from the higher levels..but most all trees are c3 plants and will benefit. Another residual benefit is reduced respiration (water loss), so plants are more drought tolerant, and will tolerate lower humidity than they would prefer normally and will be happier and grow faster at higher temperatures. When you think about it, it's quite amazing because as CO2 levels rise in the atmosphere, temps do as well...so obviously plants are "designed" to tolerate these changes and adapt..

There are also many other indirect effects caused by manipulation of CO2 levels..some not positive.. One issue that would affect nursery/food production negatively is that plants kept at higher co2 levels will develop smaller leaves, and eventually spines.. Now, this is a change in plants that would happen over a very long period of time..but something to consider more so when looking at our currently and always changing atmosphere that we, as a species, have a big hand in..

I don't know a ton about the effects that CO2 has on insects...but I am familiar with the concept and have read about it a bit as it definitely seems interesting.., and I know that exposing insects in a controlled environment (like a green house) to high levels of CO2 can very quickly kill or immobilize some insects.. I do know there are lots of studies and research looking in to it..and I have no doubt that they will figure out some practical applications.. I mean..conceptually, it sounds like an amazing idea.. To be able to (possibly) eradicate all of the insects in a closed system without harsh chemicals...that would also prevent the huge problem of killing 99% of the insects, and have only the strongest and most resistant 1% survive...and the recover with populations of resistant pests.....especially for plants that we consume.. for (Would likely have the unfortunate residual effect of killing of the beneficial insects as well..and I have no idea how it could affect things like mycorrhiza and other beneficial organisms living in the soil..) the What I don't know is how high the levels need to be, how effective it would be, and what insects would be affected...

Ok, I could go on and on, but need to do some actual work.. But..as far as pest managment..I'd have to research, but I'd imagine the CO2 would need to be raised to a high level for a short time period..probably easiest method would be a CO2 tank, which you can get a regulator for, or you can manually open and close the valve.. I'm speculating, but that would be the method that I know would raise levels quickly and then could be easily brought down again..

Methods I have used to add CO2 are as follows:

The mycellium CO2 bags that I referred to in my previous post work well, will keep consistent levels with out big spikes and drops in an enclosed type system like your green house. They are relatively inexpensive and generally last around 6 months until their production of CO2 starts to drop off and won't keep your levels as high (although will still help..). It's as simple as figuring the volume of the space to figure out how many bags you'd need (I would think just 1 for your greenhouse would be plenty)..

CO2 tank - same tanks that are used for soda machines and kegerator. They cost a little more...but I'd guess a tank and regulator would be maybe $200-$300 and tanks last quite a while, then you have them refilled basically like propane tanks.

The simplest method is just a 1 gallon milk container or similar, yeast, water and sugar.. I haven't set these up for a while, but they do work and will last about 2-3 weeks.. Very cheap set up, and it does the trick and will produce and raise levels..

One thing to keep in mind, CO2 is heavier than o2, so where it is dispensed should be above the plants they are fertilizing. Having a small computer fan or something similar to move the air around within the closed system is a good way to make sure it's available.. I have ran small diam. capped poly line hoses with small holes punched and then mount the hose above the plants... It does work.. Read about it, it's the single most limiting factor in plant growth that we are able to manipulate and bring to levels that are much higher than in nature... CO2 = steroids for plants!! Is that cheating..?? Lots more good info out there...but hopefully some food for thought and hopefully not too random and disorganized...trying to get back to work!!

Wow, great read! Thanks! I will definitely look up the milk container with yeast, etc idea and see if I can build one.

Do you know whether or not temperatures affect the effectiveness of CO2? I thought I had read that CO2 raises temperatures but also stops working at higher temperatures.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Thanks for the info. Since I am growing some of my plants is the small environment of a 15g aquarium, I am thinking it would be pretty easy to spike the levels by mixing a bit of yeast and sugar together. I am interested to see what a ficus looks like with spines.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I searched the web for how to make a CO2 generator and this link popped up first:

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/do-yourself/115134-diy-co2-generator.html

Interesting read.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I read that exhaled air has about 100 times the concentration of co2. I wonder if I could just put a hose in my aquarium and give it a few lung fulls each morning?

 

[MrBojan9les]

I read that exhaled air has about 100 times the concentration of co2. I wonder if I could just put a hose in my aquarium and give it a few lung fulls each morning?

In a very small terrarium environment....maybe it could help a little a bit, but I can't imagine the CO2 from you would have much of a measurable effect... Although I could see some indirect benefits of simple air exchange from if you are opening a lid to a container that restricts air flow, and then the air exchange would certainly help.. But hey, there is lots of research that points towards music helping plants grow and there are many many very smart people that believe this wholeheartedly.. Seems ridiculous, but it shouldn't hurt as I don't believe you'd be doing anything with much potential detriment..just don't smoke cigs that could potentially spread tobacco mosaic virus or something..although I'd say that would be a highly unlikely..that's about the only potential harm that I can imagine... I do think you'd have better luck with the sugar/yeast/water method and it's cheap..but breathe away!

 

[MrBojan9les]

I searched the web for how to make a CO2 generator and this link popped up first:

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/do-yourself/115134-diy-co2-generator.html

Interesting read.

First, let me say...no, I do not grow weed. I have a house and a job, and I would rather the feds not ruin my life and steal my home for growing a plant inside of it...so, although I do have a great appreciation for the plant..sadly, with the current legal restrictions and gray areas in its march towards legalization...I made the decision before graduating college (in '07) that I would have to leave the lovely mary jane behind...along with some of my other habits that I picked up while receiving my edjumacation...those were the days..

Ya know...I do think it would be the coolest thing ever to go bonsai on some cannabis... Anyone here ever do that or seen it done??? I will unfortunately not be doing so until enough ppl pull their heads out and let the most prolific plant in the world grow where it wants, and let the species (us) that has been growing it and spreading it around the world for thousands of years...continue to do so.. I would use it allllll the time in my job (landscape design) if I was able to do so legally (plant it, not smoke it) ..because it is an absolutely beautiful plant that has an incredible amount of variability in growth habit, size, color, leaf, anything and everything... It has sub-species that have adapted naturally (mostly thru humans bringing it wherever they migrated) to grow pretty much everywhere in the world that any other plant grows... So, even though I don't grow it myself..I may have worked on some projects with it back in college..and I think I can confidently say I have an affinity for it..

I hope it's cool to discuss..because I certainly believe there are plenty of practical applications to pull from it and it truly is an incredible source for information..and I think overall, generally is a big positive in relation to our collective appreciation and understanding of plants in general as a country...hell, take it as macro as you want...as a species..

Although I am admittedly an infant in the world of bonsai (still have my umbilical cord attached..) and have only just begun to get really interested in it...as I said, my background is horticulture/design and I do think there are techniques that can be...and I'm sure already are applied to this little niche that you all love so much.. I have no doubt that you all will have to be the judge on that..considering my level of experience = 0...

I think that learning about growing plants in a closed system or semi-closed environment; where air exchange, thus CO2 and everything else is limited or absent...and must be provided, managed and manipulated..all adds up to an amazing way to learn to grow plants.. If you want to learn about growing plants, and you want your thumb to start turning a little greener...start reading about cannabis production in a closed environment...



If you look at the challenge of growing a plant like that in a closed off environment without air exchange...and then consider that many many people are growing this plant in exactly this type of environment...(some to the point of air tight because of the...fragrance)...and consider how badly these ppl want to succeed in doing so, it should be obvious why it has increased America's collective botany, plant propagation and production skills more than about anything else..

You have one of the fastest growing plants in the world that needs extremely bright light, needs lots of air circulation, humidity control, as well as feeding, pest and disease control etc etc etc... Problems can go from barely there..or not noticeable at all to the untrained eye, to huge disasters in a very short amount of time.. I'd imagine that you all can relate somewhat.. Cannabis has very specific needs that must be met, and also requires that the plant be grown very close to its full potential to be successful..and they have value which means $$ can be invested to meet these needs..but that doesn't mean that $$ must be spent to steal a few of these ideas apply them to our tiny trees, right??

If you take THAT plant and start with a dark, closed off box....you're starting in basically the worst possible environment to grow it when considering the plant's needs....but often the only option because of the growers needs...of retaining their freedom... The reason that it can be done is the simple fact that the environment that you're starting with can obviously be manipulated and controlled.. Very intense light = lots of heat which means you have to keep it cool. Lots of plant material in a small closed in space = greatly increased humidity as well as a quick depletion of CO2, and if these needs aren't met, results = failure..

Again..sorry I ramble so much, my intentions weren't to hijack this thread and inspire us all to put our middle fingers in the air and start growing weed...but, mostly just to point out that yeah...your link is to a site that grows weed...but so what, that's best place I know of to learn to grow a plant...

Back to CO2...if anyone knows why it might not be a good idea, I'm all ears, because I certainly am not a bonsai expert... But, if the goal is to more or less take a tree, make it grow micro-mini size...but to still keep it very happy, keep it growing, and make it look all ancient...well, CO2 I would think would be the best possible tool in speeding up the entire process as much as possible...or, at least allowing the plants to perform closer to what they are capable of...

 

[MrBojan9les]

Wow, great read! Thanks! I will definitely look up the milk container with yeast, etc idea and see if I can build one.

Do you know whether or not temperatures affect the effectiveness of CO2? I thought I had read that CO2 raises temperatures but also stops working at higher temperatures.

I'd have to go back and refresh and read...but CO2 in earth's atmosphere raises temps...ie, global warming.. As far as the effectiveness...lots of factors, but basically it won't do anything for dormant plants, but if you've got a plant that is happy and healthy in every way and are doing everything right, and you want to out-do the best that mother nature can...just add CO2.. I think I mentioned earlier..co2=350ppm in "regular air", and many plants can use 1000ppm, 1500ppm, or more... This doesn't mean they'll grow 2-5x as quickly..but can increase growth rates, flowering and fruiting, etc by 1/3 or more in some plants.

Only other temp related effect I'm aware of off the top of my head is that plants tolerate higher temps when they have more co2 available.. Plants have less of need to open their stomata and release oxygen (which causes them to lose water)...haven't read or researched the subject, so don't take my word and make sure to read up on it....and definitely no experimenting on any prized plants!

 

[mat]

...

Ya know...I do think it would be the coolest thing ever to go bonsai on some cannabis... Anyone here ever do that or seen it done??? ...

grabbed from the Facebook...

 

[Redwood Ryan]

More and more seeds seem to germinate every day...

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Going to use the instructions on this site to make a generator:
http://www.hydroponic-growing-systems.com/homemade-co2-generator.html

 

[MrBojan9les]

I set some up with 1 gallon jugs. I tried a few different ratios with my yeast to sugar to see how long they would last, and how they looked as far as production. I did 2 cups sugar a pinch of baking soda in each jug (to raise ph, too acidic and yeast die). I varied the amount of yeast to see how it did... I did one with 3 tb spn, one with 2, tbsp, one with 1.5, one with 1 and one with 1/2 a tbsb.

They started to bubble away pretty quickly, and it was obvious that the ones with more yeast were producing more..

I ran airline tubing similar to what you get for fish tanks..but I actually used the 25' long oxygen tubes..(don't ask) since I happened to be able to get ahold of some.. I just capped the ends of the tubes with elec tape, used a drill to poke holes every 8-10"or so (I drilled thru both side of the tube),and then ran the tubes back and forth in kind of a zig zag over the top of the plants...which aren't bonsai, but I've got orchids and bromeliads. If you have a way to hang the tubes above, that would work, or another way to do it that I thought of is taking bottles of water and taping small bamboo plant stakes to them so the bottle holds it upright, and then just used elec tape to fasten the tubing to the stakes. I didn't want my hosing to be attached to the plants or pots and didn't want to just lay the tubing on the plants...but that could work fine as well.. I have no idea how much of an effect CO2 has on the plants I'm feeding..and how much they can use. But, generally CO2 toxicity won't start bothering plants until it's at about 10,000ppm..(regular air = 350ppm, most plants can use up to about 1500 ppm). I am think I'm going to order a CO2 meter since there's no way to know how much is being produced and what the levels are being held at..and that kind of annoys me.. Those things are typically crazy expensive...but I found this website, and think I'm gonna order this one...supposed to be accurate to within about 50ppm which is perfectly fine for me.. Most I've seen are in the $300-$500 range. This one is 150, plus it will give you temp, humidity, and date/time.

http://www.co2meter.com/products/ti...dity-monitor?gclid=CI-dpsvL1rQCFSXZQgodcQoA4g

Well, they're out of stock for right now...damn it.. But, I looked more and found this for $107

http://compare.ebay.com/like/170957315861?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y


Couple other things...

Instead of putting a hole in the lid of my 1g jugs, I put it under the lid in the side of the jug near the top. To me it seems like it'd be better to just leave the lid alone.

Also, I put a little silicon around the hose where it comes out of the buckets so I don't lose co2 from there.

-I don't think the second bottle (chamber) would be at all necessary...when those are used to add CO2 to aquaticfish tanks, they use the same basic method , but funcition that the second bottle serves is as a diffuser, whcih makes more of the co2 stay in the fish tank nstead of bubbling up and the co2 leaving..so, I don't think that is at all necessary.


One thing I was thinking about was how it could be made to last longer...and I was thinking a larger containor... So, I may try doing some with home depot organge bucket with a lid. You can float a piece of toast and then put the yeast on the toast too and I think with the yeast on the toast it would help to make it last longer.

I'll keep you all apprised...

 

[Neli]

Sounds interesting!

 

[MrBojan9les]

update

As of the 12th, 5 days after I started them up.. all jugs look like they're working.. I can tell which are more active by how much moisture is in the tubes. So far the ones with more yeast definitely have more going on, which I would expect.. Will be interesting to see how long those ones last compared to the ones with a higher sugar/yeast ratio.. Have definitely noted a difference in the plants...new growth is accelerating and they look happier over all.. Would be interesting to know what the co2 levels are, but not intriguing enough to buy a meter for $100+..

 

[Fallen_Reality]

Really great setup Ryan! I have a few questions about it, if you don't mind.

How do you secure the 2 millimeter drop cloth to the PVC piping without getting gaps?

What kind of lights are you using, and where can similar be obtained?

What soil composition do you use on your ficuses?


Also, have you considered doing a Do-It-Yourself video or forum post showing the process of creating a tropical habitat? I know I would find it very useful, and I'm sure many others would as well.

Thank you for any information you can provide!

 

[Redwood Ryan]

As of the 12th, 5 days after I started them up.. all jugs look like they're working.. I can tell which are more active by how much moisture is in the tubes. So far the ones with more yeast definitely have more going on, which I would expect.. Will be interesting to see how long those ones last compared to the ones with a higher sugar/yeast ratio.. Have definitely noted a difference in the plants...new growth is accelerating and they look happier over all.. Would be interesting to know what the co2 levels are, but not intriguing enough to buy a meter for $100+..

Great to hear, keep us updated!

Really great setup Ryan! I have a few questions about it, if you don't mind.

How do you secure the 2 millimeter drop cloth to the PVC piping without getting gaps?

What kind of lights are you using, and where can similar be obtained?

What soil composition do you use on your ficuses?


Also, have you considered doing a Do-It-Yourself video or forum post showing the process of creating a tropical habitat? I know I would find it very useful, and I'm sure many others would as well.

Thank you for any information you can provide!

Thanks!

I just simply tape the plastic to the PVC and that way works well.

I'm using T5 HO fluorescent lights that I buy online since no stores around me sell the lights. I order them from Amazon.

I buy a pre-made soil, as I'm still trying to hunt down the right soil components. It is simply turface and chopped pine bark. Since they're Ficus and can tolerate a good amount of organics, I don't worry about ratios.

I could create a video if there was enough interest, though I'm not exactly sure what would be in it that couldn't be seen in pictures