My new Chinese Elm Project

Darran

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I have picked this elm up today for a small £25 fee. I am sure it has more faults than features, but I'm a beginner and I thought it would be a good experiment for me to learn a few things.

firstly the base is rather odd it has two thick roots going out then the trunk is continuing straight down for at least another inch as far as I can tell. the two horizontal roots seem to have been cut and smaller roots grow from the tip.

did not want to move to much soil as I don't know what I am doing, and don't want to kill it.

What are peoples thoughts on how to approach the improvement of this tree.
 

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Darran

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I would like to change the pot at some point as I don't like it, I thought of a shallower oval pot with better soil of maybe a single part pumice, acadama and pumice mixture, which seems to be the go to choice on the videos I have been watching recently. Have no idea of the growing cycle of this tree yet to determine when repotting, pruning and footwork should be done. Any info would be great, in the meantime I am going to do more reading / video watching
 

Darran

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First bit of investigation and I a sure this tree was incorrect labelled in the nursery as it said it was zalcova, but it I believe is Ulmus Parvifolia.

Repotting this tree will need to wait until early spring next year, feb - mar in the UK.

There are clear signs of growth, so I will give it. Some settling down time as it’s moved from indoors at the nursery to outdoors. The just prune and feed for the rest of this year, until it stops with autumn.
 

Shibui

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Definitely looks like Chinese elm - ulmus parvifolia - to me too.
The few strong roots is normal for Chinese elms. The smaller roots coming from ends of cut roots is also normal and is one way to get better rootage on these. They are very resilient and, at the right time of year, roots can be cut really hard to get better roots in better locations.

Definitely leave it to adjust to your conditions and your care. You could even let any new shoots grow quite long over the rest of summer to give added strength.
At repotting I would consider tilting the tree so the first section of trunk is not vertical. That will also make the second horizontal section up a little which should make it easier to build branches.

ch elm .JPG
The strong roots may not allow that tilt easily so if tilt is not possible I don't mind the quirky trunk as is.
The view I have attached looks like the best front as it gives branching at the rear for visual depth. Just need to grow and develop the branching and keep the apex under control.
 

Darran

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Definitely looks like Chinese elm - ulmus parvifolia - to me too.
The few strong roots is normal for Chinese elms. The smaller roots coming from ends of cut roots is also normal and is one way to get better rootage on these. They are very resilient and, at the right time of year, roots can be cut really hard to get better roots in better locations.

Definitely leave it to adjust to your conditions and your care. You could even let any new shoots grow quite long over the rest of summer to give added strength.
At repotting I would consider tilting the tree so the first section of trunk is not vertical. That will also make the second horizontal section up a little which should make it easier to build branches.

View attachment 383079
The strong roots may not allow that tilt easily so if tilt is not possible I don't mind the quirky trunk as is.
The view I have attached looks like the best front as it gives branching at the rear for visual depth. Just need to grow and develop the branching and keep the apex under control.
I agree the view you selected seems to be the best, the basic triangular shape is there, but all the branches are behind the tree. Also I think once settled the pads need to be defined a little, to have some gaps between them.

Angling the branch that is horizontal is a good choice if it’s possible, also it’s a shame that the apex tilts backwards, but I am sure there is a decent tree in this somewhere.

Repotting won’t be until next spring, and I was going to aim for a none glazed, oval pot that is a little shallower if the roots allow But we will see.

I have been watching several videos including the Mirai beginner ones, and there is two trains of thought on pruning, one is leave it and prune towards the end of the growing season The other more continual. I don’t have to prune much now, and want to wait for it to settle in. Then I will see how much it starts growing and decide later.

thank you for your input
 

Shibui

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two trains of thought on pruning, one is leave it and prune towards the end of the growing season The other more continual.
I think the approach should reflect the stage of development.
Trees that are growing, thickening or developing ramification are best with the grow and cut method. More growth of branches allows the tree to feed itself and add more wood so the trunk thickens. Shoots that are allowed to grow, strengthen and harden up a bit respond with more new shoots when pruned so ramification increases better.
I move on to more regular trimming (pinching) for trees that are becoming well developed and don't need to thicken or increase ramification. Continual trimming slows growth so branches don't get too thick or too crowded.
Unfortunately many internet gurus don't recognize the difference or forget to talk about different stages of development.

Beware of shallow pots. I know there is a fad on for shallow is better but shallow is not so good for the plants. Your summer may be more conducive but I've moved away from very shallow pots and the trees are doing ever so much better here.

I agree the view you selected seems to be the best, the basic triangular shape is there, but all the branches are behind the tree
Branches behind is not quite visible in the 2D photos. It may be possible to wire one or more toward the side or front to give side branches. Otherwise you will need to look for a better viewing angle. The trunk still looks good from the opposite side but lack of back branches for depth makes it less attractive as a viewing angle overall. Not being able to judge well from photos I am happy to leave ultimate choice of front to you who can see properly.
 

Darran

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I think the approach should reflect the stage of development.
Trees that are growing, thickening or developing ramification are best with the grow and cut method. More growth of branches allows the tree to feed itself and add more wood so the trunk thickens. Shoots that are allowed to grow, strengthen and harden up a bit respond with more new shoots when pruned so ramification increases better.
I move on to more regular trimming (pinching) for trees that are becoming well developed and don't need to thicken or increase ramification. Continual trimming slows growth so branches don't get too thick or too crowded.
Unfortunately many internet gurus don't recognize the difference or forget to talk about different stages of development.

Beware of shallow pots. I know there is a fad on for shallow is better but shallow is not so good for the plants. Your summer may be more conducive but I've moved away from very shallow pots and the trees are doing ever so much better here.


Branches behind is not quite visible in the 2D photos. It may be possible to wire one or more toward the side or front to give side branches. Otherwise you will need to look for a better viewing angle. The trunk still looks good from the opposite side but lack of back branches for depth makes it less attractive as a viewing angle overall. Not being able to judge well from photos I am happy to leave ultimate choice of front to you who can see properly.
The branches would all be behind the tree if I use the shot (3) your choice. Currently the first shot is what was displayed as the front. the last two show a side angle I was considering also.

The trunk is clearer in shot 3 but all the current branches would then be originating from the back half of the trunk. it does mean though the trunk is very visible this way.
 

ConorDash

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Think of perhaps air layering.

I got my CE mallsai, same as this, 5 years ago. I air layered it in half, put the top half in the ground and now its quite a little monster which will be a great tree. It gave me experience air layering + 2 trees.
The bottom i didnt do much with but put in ground recently, its gotten a bit bigger. Will stay in ground for a year or 2 more.

Perhaps care for the tree first, ensure it stays healthy. This is just an option if you want a varied experience of a few things at once.
 

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Think of perhaps air layering.

I got my CE mallsai, same as this, 5 years ago. I air layered it in half, put the top half in the ground and now its quite a little monster which will be a great tree. It gave me experience air layering + 2 trees.
The bottom i didnt do much with but put in ground recently, its gotten a bit bigger. Will stay in ground for a year or 2 more.

Perhaps care for the tree first, ensure it stays healthy. This is just an option if you want a varied experience of a few things at once.
Would like to see progress pics if you have them!
 

Darran

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Here are some more pics. The too obvious fronts for the tree have issues to resolve, picture 1 is the current front, picture two is the back, but i think could make a good front.

if picture 1 is the front then the apex is growing out and then up from the awful chop mark shown in picture 3 and 4.

wht do you think 1 or 2 for the front and what would / could be done about that stump.
 

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Darran

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So I watched a few videos and this is what I got from them as ideas, hopefully the more experienced amongst you can tell me if I’m on the right track.

The bottom right branch I want to bring more forward by developing the orange circled branch to come towards the tree then back right.

the second branch on the right I want to lower slightly and maybe cut it back to grow a better pad inside the triangular line,

the upward shooting branch at the top I think should be removed and I encourage more growth to cover that awful stump behind it. Also bring the apex to the front a little more as most of its growth is behind the trunk

the branches on the right stick out a little far and should be reduce.

am I thinking along the right lines, or am I way off here.
 

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ConorDash

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I will probably Friday or Saturday. I’ll remember..
*narrator* He did not remember...

My mallsai, March 2016.

Start.jpg

Shortly after, I decided to air layer it, from advice on this forum (the original thread is still there if you wanna find it).
Air layer.jpg

After layering, top half and bottom half:
Top half - after layer.jpg
Bottom half - After layer.jpg


I then made the mistake of doing nothing with the bottom half - December 2018.
DSC_0086 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

Same month, I planted it in the ground, having wasted 1-2 years. December 2018.

DSC_0083 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

I planted the top half in the ground between end of 2018 and 2019. February 2019.
DSC_0186 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

September 2019.
DSC_0883 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

I recently moved both trees to my new house, hopefully the bottom half won't have lost too much time but I think it has now, with the dig up.

Still fairly small but as you can see on the original tree pic, it had BIG wire scars all over the trunk, this has completely gone now. I removed a few branches so it will grow better. May 2021.
vutnr2K.jpg
9wtnHOl.jpg

Today, top half:

CE ground grown by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

It has some dieback on its 8-9ft of growth but it will be cut down to the first 6-7" anyway, so don't care. Just deciding now, when to do root work and drastic pruning. It was unhappy about being transplanted and sulked, did nothing for months. I even started a thread on it, seeing if people think it will live!
Anyways, I could have saved a few years with all of this, if I had done stuff sooner. Live and learn.
 

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Darran

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Well it’s looking a little bit haggard after the winter
 

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