My Ponderosa in Georgia.

[Dav4]

Well they are still there ... so at least 3+ years ..... you will be able to remove them faster once it gets stronger ....

Good, safe answer, Ang...It was 5 years this past March. As you say, the tree hasn't been too vigorous, but I'm sure the branches are fixed in their current position. Still, they aren't even close to biting in so I havn't bothered. Maybe next year...

 

[Ang3lfir3]

no reason to remove them just yet right.... they aren't hurting anything ...

 

[Dav4]

Starting a thread is always a little bit exciting. Seeing if people enjoy the topic and reading their responses can be quite enjoyable. ENDING a thread...not so much. Anyway, I promised I'd let everyone know how this one faired down here in GA...it went toes up over the winter. Even though it seemed to be regaining some vigor when I last posted, it continued to drop branches and was always afflicted with needle cast despite my best efforts. Nothing was done to it other then watering and light fert last year, and it was kept in close to full sun while having the pot shaded. Oh well. There are many different species of trees that can be grown and even thrive here in N.GA...Ponderosas are NOT one of them.


...and before anybody asks if the rather cold winter we had did it in...absolutely not. The issue with this one was never the winter weather here, but rather the summer weather.

 

[Adair M]

If its any consolation, I have one struggling, too. But I think the problem with mine was the guy who mows my yard knocked it over, then picked it back up and replaced as much soil as possible, and hid the remainder under some mulch. I didn't notice how wobbly it was in its pot until recently. (And found the evidence of an accident.)

I did a repot. We will see if it makes it...

 

[mcpesq817]

Sorry to read this post Dave. I have had similar issues here in the DC area, where I think these trees aren't well adapted for the type of hot humid weather we get here on the southeastern coast (others here don't seem to have as much of a problem though).

Strangely enough, the first ponderosa I got give years ago from a Larry Jackel workshop is still alive and doing ok. I lost a few others that I acquired since then that went through similar decline as yours. I have one from Andy Smith that Ryan Neil styled a year and a half ago that is just gangbusters with lush, fresh growth and bright green needles, that never seems to get needle cast - all this despite the fact that Ryan torqued the tree quite a bit and that I don't fertilize it until late summer/fall. It's all a bit of a mystery to me, which is why I think I will focus on japanese black pines instead for my pine fix - they grow like weeds here.

 

[mcpesq817]

If its any consolation, I have one struggling, too. But I think the problem with mine was the guy who mows my yard knocked it over, then picked it back up and replaced as much soil as possible, and hid the remainder under some mulch. I didn't notice how wobbly it was in its pot until recently. (And found the evidence of an accident.)

I did a repot. We will see if it makes it...

Good luck - I think these trees are incredibly sensitive to any root movement. I lost one under similar circumstances, and lost a second that I hadn't tied down adequately before trying to style it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Pretty sure I killed mine 2 years ago by moving it around too much working on it. This was 2 years after collecting it, and it put on good growth both of those years, so I thought I was out of the woods. Sorry about the loss Dave.

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Anyone who has lost trees can feel for the loss... especially a sweetheart like that.

R.I.P. lil buddy....

V

 

[lordy]

That sucks Dave. But who among us hasnt been there?

It does look kinda pitiful, you have to admit. I immediately had an image flood my brain-- I hope you dont frown on this lighthearted slant on the demise of your tree. Charlie Brown would be proud.

 

[fourteener]

The thread contains a lot of speculation about light and water and heat. The one thing not discussed is dormancy. Many species that live here in the north require 6 weeks of frozen dormancy at a minimum to be healthy.

You might have been fighting a wide variety of things that could be changed to help out. But in the end it was never gonna get the required amount of off-season rest. There are pondies that grow in warmer places, just like we can condition some jap maples to deal with our cold up here. But it's not the norm and the reason that regional trees provide more joy than heartache.

Sorry for your loss. Always a bummer. If I ever moved down south, I would have some hard choices to make.

 

[Dav4]

It may have been lack of winter chill, but I'm not convinced. We get plenty of cold here each winter as a rule, but it's sporadic. First frost usually late October/early November, followed by freezing/thawing all winter long. Last winter, temps didn't fall below 26 F...this year it fell to 2 F and was in single digits 4 times. The first two winters here, we got close to a foot total of snow each season, along with several weeks where it barely got above freezing. It'll be in the 20's again tonight. I also know a man named John Kirby who used to successfully grow lots of collected Pondies in Arkansas...he actually kept them in Poly tunnels and they would hardly freeze at all. Anyway, I'm done experimenting with marginal trees like ponderosa here in GA. They belong up north and out west.

 

[Dav4]

That sucks Dave. But who among us hasnt been there?

It does look kinda pitiful, you have to admit. I immediately had an image flood my brain-- I hope you dont frown on this lighthearted slant on the demise of your tree. Charlie Brown would be proud.

Yeah, but Charlie's tree was free if I remember correctly....

 

[mcpesq817]

It may have been lack of winter chill, but I'm not convinced. We get plenty of cold here each winter as a rule, but it's sporadic. First frost usually late October/early November, followed by freezing/thawing all winter long. Last winter, temps didn't fall below 26 F...this year it fell to 2 F and was in single digits 4 times. The first two winters here, we got close to a foot total of snow each season, along with several weeks where it barely got above freezing. It'll be in the 20's again tonight. I also know a man named John Kirby who used to successfully grow lots of collected Pondies in Arkansas...he actually kept them in Poly tunnels and they would hardly freeze at all. Anyway, I'm done experimenting with marginal trees like ponderosa here in GA. They belong up north and out west.

I agree with Dave on all points, as we probably have very similar winter conditions. Over the years, I've stored my trees in a detached garage with temps between 30-40, and/or outside in temps down to 15 degrees, with no noticeable effect.

I'm also thinking about staying away from ponderosas here, or possibly grafting better foliage on them to avoid some of the issues discussed.

 

[fourteener]

It may have been lack of winter chill, but I'm not convinced. We get plenty of cold here each winter as a rule, but it's sporadic. First frost usually late October/early November, followed by freezing/thawing all winter long. Last winter, temps didn't fall below 26 F...this year it fell to 2 F and was in single digits 4 times. The first two winters here, we got close to a foot total of snow each season, along with several weeks where it barely got above freezing. It'll be in the 20's again tonight. I also know a man named John Kirby who used to successfully grow lots of collected Pondies in Arkansas...he actually kept them in Poly tunnels and they would hardly freeze at all. Anyway, I'm done experimenting with marginal trees like ponderosa here in GA. They belong up north and out west.

Uh...yeah the key is sporadic. Frozen dormancy requires frozen for a minimum of 6 straight weeks. Four months of constant frozen would be better. While Georgia might get cold sometimes, I can't imagine it offers this. People in Iowa struggle with Tamarack. It gets cold but not frozen for multiple months.

Sporadic freezing is nothing like a frozen dormant period.

 

[Adair M]

If that were the case, fourteener, how does Boon grow them in the San Francisco Bay area? It rarely freezes there. (Except in July! LOL!!)

 

[fourteener]

If that were the case, fourteener, how does Boon grow them in the San Francisco Bay area? It rarely freezes there. (Except in July! LOL!!)

Pretty simple...

Pinus ponderosa subsp. critchfieldiana (Pacific ponderosa pine)

P. ponderosa subsp. ponderosa Douglas (Columbia ponderosa pine)

P. ponderosa subsp. scopulorum (Rocky Mountains ponderosa pine).

Pinus ponderosa subsp. brachyptera (Southwestern ponderosa pine)

Pinus ponderosa subsp. readiana (Central High Plains ponderosa pine)

There is more than one variety of Pondersoa Pine...suited to different parts of the country. Take a Rocky Mountain Ponderosa to Georgia or San Fran and see what happens. Ponderosa's grow from the high desert of Canada to the high desert of Arizona to the wet Northwest and dry South west. Different adaptations to environment.

The opposite is true as well. There are certain Japanese Maples we can keep alive here in zone three, but not many. Different varieties, different tolerances.

 

[Dav4]

John Kirby and his methods of growing ponderosas in Arkansas was highlighted in Larry Jackel's book, "Ponderosa Pines as Bonsai". I don't recall everything in detail, but I do know he kept many trees collected from Colorado, Wyoming, etc. I do remember that he kept them in Poly tunnels and deliberately had them breaking dormancy in March(?). I doubt his trees were ever frozen solid for 6 weeks straight...ever. Anyway, his climate in Arkansas is quite similar to mine, but a bit further north, and it was his success with these trees that gave me hope that it could be done in GA. Finally, I honestly don't believe any tree actually has to freeze solid for an extended period of time to complete a chilling cycle. Decreasing day length initiates dormancy and cold temps maintain it, but I don't think the tree cares if the temps are 25 F or 35 F. There are people in Tennessee that have beautiful Ponderosa Bonsai...Warren Hill has had a beautiful specimen in Eastern Tennessee for around 18 years...no way that one has spent an extended period of its winter dormancy frozen solid, either.

 

[fourteener]

John Kirby and his methods of growing ponderosas in Arkansas was highlighted in Larry Jackel's book, "Ponderosa Pines as Bonsai". I don't recall everything in detail, but I do know he kept many trees collected from Colorado, Wyoming, etc. I do remember that he kept them in Poly tunnels and deliberately had them breaking dormancy in March(?). I doubt his trees were ever frozen solid for 6 weeks straight...ever. Anyway, his climate in Arkansas is quite similar to mine, but a bit further north, and it was his success with these trees that gave me hope that it could be done in GA. Finally, I honestly don't believe any tree actually has to freeze solid for an extended period of time to complete a chilling cycle. Decreasing day length initiates dormancy and cold temps maintain it, but I don't think the tree cares if the temps are 25 F or 35 F. There are people in Tennessee that have beautiful Ponderosa Bonsai...Warren Hill has had a beautiful specimen in Eastern Tennessee for around 18 years...no way that one has spent an extended period of its winter dormancy frozen solid, either.

I go back to the Jap maple thing. I think there are exceptions that demonstrate the rule. This is beyond the range of Jap Maples. Nurseries are now required to tell people the trees are not fit for this zone. Every once in awhile you find a happy healthy Jap Maple in someone's landscaping, but the stories of wasted money are more numerous. It's not an exact science but the tendencies are very strong.

 

[mcpesq817]

Wasn't there someone in Florida working with Ponderosa in Jackel's book?

 

[Dav4]

Wasn't there someone in Florida working with Ponderosa in Jackel's book?

No...for highlighted Pondy growers, John Kirby was the furthest south.