My Poor Pines

[Trempie4]

Absolute newbie here with a long time interest in bonsai. That said, definitely a green thumb but no experience with bonsai, a few potted Japanese maples in my backyard, and lots of perennials. At 53 yo w a poor track record of male longevity in my lineage bonsai seems silly but what the heck, off I go. Location background: Baltimore city with 20' wide backyard, with about 20 sq ft of available space so it will never turn into a hoarding hobby although I've planted the seeds of backyard maintenance for my neighbor in exchange for another 10' of dead space in the back of their yard, that's still in negotiation.

Covid, a lack of business travel opportunities related to covid, and a brother in law with a mountain house in WV where I've seen a lot of inspirationally gnarled "mountain pines" has led to the resurgence of interest in the hobby. My fossil hobby also keeps me in potentially interesting areas where trees of character can occasionally be found.

I read a few forum posts which I though I had explained the overall basics of successful wild collecting and transplanting back home but in delving deeper into the weeds I've discovered that I've most likely already made flaws that will lead to the demise of the everything I've brought home with a trunk diameter thicker than 1/4". I've been able to collected a few fun and potentially interesting pines (to me at least and thankfully this hobby is semi-subjective and artistically generous) from the following locations:

1. Loblolly - Smithfield, VA (I believe this is a loblolly but feel free to correct if incorrect)
2. Pitch Pine(s) - NJ Pines Barrens area
3. Unknown Pine - Lost River, WV (some ID assistance on this one would be greatly appreciated) (looks like 2 needles with a 1-1.5" needle length which is nice!)

The common issue to each of these collected trees is that the soils from which they were collected were so sandy (VA and NJ specimens) or porous in the case of the WV tree that there were no actual root balls. Rather, there were radial root whips that, in the 2 pitch pines, were as long as 6-8 feet, and on the WV specimen only a tap root and a single lateral root about 1/4" in thickness were available with almost nothing smaller. The VA loblolly had what I consider the most potentially significant root "ball", but that is a generous description.

Suffice it to say, root reduction efforts to get them into the containers in the associated photos far exceeded the recommended 25% for pines. I guess we will see what happens over the next 6-12 months. And of course, collection time was between October and early December for the pitch pines so that timing was off as well (I assume).

Here's hoping these guys are motivated to survive and they push out some feeders sooner rather than later.

Pics to follow in a follow-up posting....

Feel free to comment, critique as needed, and save the criticism for private comments amongst yourselves!

Happy Holidays; Hannukkah, Kwanza, Diwali, Hijiri, Winter Solstice, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone.

Stay safe and hopefully 2021 is better than this one! Thanks in advance for your assistance and insight.

Lewis!

 

[Trempie4]

1. Loblolly - Smithfield, VA (I believe this is a loblolly but feel free to correct if incorrect)

 

[Trempie4]

2. Pitch Pine(s) - NJ Pines Barrens area

2 specimens, both larger than anyone here would most likely have selected

 

[Trempie4]

3. Unknown Pine - Lost River, WV (some ID assistance on this one would be greatly appreciated)

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice finds, These are young trees, it will take some time for them to be "show ready bonsai", but the enjoyment of bonsai is the process, so whether takes it is a day or a decade, it doesn't matter. Also, even though longevity might not run in your family, you never know when your time is up, you don't want to wake up one day, realize you are now 95 yrs old and never started bonsai because you never thought you would live that long. I'm 65 and have a bunch of seed in my refrigerator, stratifying for spring, I know these different trees may need 30 & 40 years of growing to be "show worthy", I have every intention of living long enough to see them in a show. Will I make it? Don't know, still, I'm going for it.

I do want to add raising trees from seed is a "nurseryman's activity". Most bonsai are started from the oldest material we can get our hands on. Seed is the slowest route. Buying a 200 year old collected tree is the quickest way to end up with a tree in a pot that looks 100 years old. Once you are confident with your horticultural skills for keeping bonsai trees going, you should consider obtaining, buying, or trading for a tree in more advanced stages of bonsai development. Seedlings need mostly nursery techniques, until they are over 5 or 10 years. Regular use of bonsai techniques only comes in with older, more developed trees. At some point you will want to obtain an older, more developed tree or two. But you can get into that after you have had a couple years of growing younger material like the pines you collected.

Identifying young pines. The number of needles in a bundle (fascicle) is key to sorting out which species of pine you have. Also note whether the needles twist or not, twisting is not as consistent of a trait as number of needles in the bundle, but it is an "on the average" sort of trait.

#1 - Smithfield VA - I can not tell how many needles in a bundle. If it is 3 needles per bundle, P. taeda is a good guess. For P taeda, needles can be twisted, or can be straight. The needles look longer than #2, which also supports P. taeda as its identity.

#2 - NJ Pine Barrens - clearly has 3 needles per bundle, and looks like there is a twist, but not real clear from the photo. The NJ Barrens are noted for abundant Pitch pine, so P. rigida is the logical guess.

#3 - Lost River, WV - has 2 needles per bundle, and clearly the needles twist. If you had a mix of 2 needle bundles and 3 needle bundles, it could be Pinus echinata. Read the Wikipedia article on Pinus virginiana, If your tree has only bundles of 2 needles, and if you measure the length of the sheath of the needle bundles, and it matches what is in the Wiki article, you might have P. virginiana. It could also be a scots pine, Pinus sylvestris, or even Pinus nigra. Both are European species that have naturalized in large areas of USA. I would lean toward P. virginiana as your identity. But spend time on Wikipedia with their list of pine species. As these grow and mature you will figure it out.

These are freshly collected trees. Plan on just leaving them alone for 2021. They need time to rebuild their root systems. Just leave them alone, maybe they will recover, maybe they won't. No repotting, or pruning or wiring for at least 2021.

 

[coachspinks]

I will echo what Leo says, start with the best material you can afford. I am older than you and am on my second go round with bonsai. I keep a number of trees that I learn on but my last few purchases have been decent looking trees. After 5 years, a number of my learning trees are becoming decent but many are going to take much longer to look good. As I was pulling them off the benches and putting them on to the ground a few weeks ago, I made a mental note that I have too many. With your lack of space I think this applies to you as well.
Another thing I learned, I hated the look of a dozen types of nursery pots. Two years ago I started the process of moving everything that isn't in a bonsai pot into terra cotta grow pots. I did the same thing with my herb garden and annuals. It creates a much better overall appearance.

 

[PA_Penjing]

My first guess for #3 is virginia pine. I can't tell in the photos but, are the finer twigs purplish? if so it's virginia pine

 

[Trempie4]

Thanks for the responses gentlemen;

Coach..... at this point I'm not really buying anything. As suggested, I'll give it a year or two to ensure survival out back through all seasons and if the covid ever passes, for 4-5 days of frequent business travel trips. My super cute roommate is awesome but has a set of matched black thumbs, whatever arrives at our location actually has to survive us both. I understand the matching pot presentation advice, I've some other collections that are well/professionally represented. At this point, I'm literally just trying to see what survives. I'm pretty handy with the table saw and will bang out some wooden boxes in the spring as it's a look I appreciate (and can easily afford)!

Leo... I really appreciate the insight with regard to pine ID's. I'll head out back at first light and put some additional effort into honing in on the id's. I'll post some detail photos once I've done my due diligence on wikipedia.

And lastly, I've no issues following the sound advice of not doing anything to these trees for 2021. I'll spend that time finishing up the koi pond...

One last Q. Should these over root trimmed trees ever be fertilized and when? I'm thinking mid-winter is probably not the best time if ever. Most likely in the spring if/when any of them show any new growth....

Thanks again for the input!

 

[Colorado]

Many collectors who collect pines in the fall/early winter will protect the tree until spring by placing the container in a heat bed, or in a greenhouse, or both. Maybe these will make it. Good luck! If they do, you can fertilize in spring.

 

[Paradox]

One last Q. Should these over root trimmed trees ever be fertilized and when? I'm thinking mid-winter is probably not the best time if ever. Most likely in the spring if/when any of them show any new growth....

If they still look healthy in March, I would give them a little fertilizer. Pines in my neck of the woods start to wake up in March. You're a little south of me so it should be the same for you.

 

[Potawatomi13]

One last Q. Should these over root trimmed trees ever be fertilized and when? I'm thinking mid-winter is probably not the best time if ever. Most likely in the spring if/when any of them show any new growth....

IF they survive/grow fertilize lightly as may only be growing on any stored reserves. One thing one must remember: Pines store growing seasons energy in roots and much has been removed. Removing too much root including small feeders endangers tree survival. This is big question here? Personally advocate optimism for trees lives. Never give up until 100% dead/brown. If life persists in Spring provide morning sun safe from worst heat of afternoon.

 

[Trempie4]

IF they survive/grow fertilize lightly as may only be growing on any stored reserves. One thing one must remember: Pines store growing seasons energy in roots and much has been removed. Removing too much root including small feeders endangers tree survival. This is big question here? Personally advocate optimism for trees lives. Never give up until 100% dead/brown. If life persists in Spring provide morning sun safe from worst heat of afternoon.

Tree Lives Matter! I'm on it!

 

[Trempie4]

If they still look healthy in March, I would give them a little fertilizer. Pines in my neck of the woods start to wake up in March. You're a little south of me so it should be the same for you.

Understood and thanks Paradox! I was up on LI a few weeks ago, ended up ferrying over to New London before heading back down to Baltimore on a customer loop. Love those gnarly pines up on the North end of the Island!

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Trempie4]

Nice finds, These are young trees, it will take some time for them to be "show ready bonsai", but the enjoyment of bonsai is the process, so whether takes it is a day or a decade, it doesn't matter. Also, even though longevity might not run in your family, you never know when your time is up, you don't want to wake up one day, realize you are now 95 yrs old and never started bonsai because you never thought you would live that long. I'm 65 and have a bunch of seed in my refrigerator, stratifying for spring, I know these different trees may need 30 & 40 years of growing to be "show worthy", I have every intention of living long enough to see them in a show. Will I make it? Don't know, still, I'm going for it.

I do want to add raising trees from seed is a "nurseryman's activity". Most bonsai are started from the oldest material we can get our hands on. Seed is the slowest route. Buying a 200 year old collected tree is the quickest way to end up with a tree in a pot that looks 100 years old. Once you are confident with your horticultural skills for keeping bonsai trees going, you should consider obtaining, buying, or trading for a tree in more advanced stages of bonsai development. Seedlings need mostly nursery techniques, until they are over 5 or 10 years. Regular use of bonsai techniques only comes in with older, more developed trees. At some point you will want to obtain an older, more developed tree or two. But you can get into that after you have had a couple years of growing younger material like the pines you collected.

Identifying young pines. The number of needles in a bundle (fascicle) is key to sorting out which species of pine you have. Also note whether the needles twist or not, twisting is not as consistent of a trait as number of needles in the bundle, but it is an "on the average" sort of trait.

#1 - Smithfield VA - I can not tell how many needles in a bundle. If it is 3 needles per bundle, P. taeda is a good guess. For P taeda, needles can be twisted, or can be straight. The needles look longer than #2, which also supports P. taeda as its identity.

#2 - NJ Pine Barrens - clearly has 3 needles per bundle, and looks like there is a twist, but not real clear from the photo. The NJ Barrens are noted for abundant Pitch pine, so P. rigida is the logical guess.

#3 - Lost River, WV - has 2 needles per bundle, and clearly the needles twist. If you had a mix of 2 needle bundles and 3 needle bundles, it could be Pinus echinata. Read the Wikipedia article on Pinus virginiana, If your tree has only bundles of 2 needles, and if you measure the length of the sheath of the needle bundles, and it matches what is in the Wiki article, you might have P. virginiana. It could also be a scots pine, Pinus sylvestris, or even Pinus nigra. Both are European species that have naturalized in large areas of USA. I would lean toward P. virginiana as your identity. But spend time on Wikipedia with their list of pine species. As these grow and mature you will figure it out.

These are freshly collected trees. Plan on just leaving them alone for 2021. They need time to rebuild their root systems. Just leave them alone, maybe they will recover, maybe they won't. No repotting, or pruning or wiring for at least 2021.

Nice work Leo, you were spot on with all three ID's.

1. P. taeda
2. P. rigida
3. P. virginiana

With regard to #3 P. virginiana; all needles were doubles, twisted, w appropriate sheath size. Needles were shorter than described at 1-4.5 cm max so I'm assuming he was suffering from a stunty nutrient deficiency as when he was extracted, he was hanging onto a rocky vertical face cliff by his tap root and the other major root coming off of the tap root.

Thanks again for chiming in. I learned a lot and was able to pick up a bonus ID on a pine I've been ogling locally for a few months.

 

[Trempie4]

Many collectors who collect pines in the fall/early winter will protect the tree until spring by placing the container in a heat bed, or in a greenhouse, or both. Maybe these will make it. Good luck! If they do, you can fertilize in spring.

Thanks, winters have recently been mild though we're in the midst of the coldest weather I can recall in years, even a bit of snow day before yesterday. We'll see how tough these guys are. It's Baltimore, scrappy survival is how we roll!

 

[Trempie4]

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

My crazy is a weighty tome, this is merely the latest chapter!

 

[Paradox]

Understood and thanks Paradox! I was up on LI a few weeks ago, ended up ferrying over to New London before heading back down to Baltimore on a customer loop. Love those gnarly pines up on the North end of the Island!

I've got a few Pitch pines that I collected as 1 or 2 year old seedlings along a dirt road.
There are some ridges in Connecticut where they can grow in some interesting shapes and are really gnarly.

 

[Trempie4]

I've got a few Pitch pines that I collected as 1 or 2 year old seedlings along a dirt road.
There are some ridges in Connecticut where they can grow in some interesting shapes and are really gnarly.

I lived in RI for 5 years and spent a year in CT for college. My big passion at that time was fossils and the geologic record there is lackluster at best. Wish I had had the bonsai bug back then. 35 yrs of tree development would've been more impactful than adding those 35 years to things long dead and schlepping 10,000 lbs of rock with every move... alas...

 

[Trempie4]

My first guess for #3 is virginia pine. I can't tell in the photos but, are the finer twigs purplish? if so it's virginia pine

You nailed it PA! no purple but looks to be a virginiana! I'm down in Balto, where are you up in PA?