My Two Tropical Mahogany Trees

[SockUnicorn]

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Interesting. Mahogany is usually one of 3 species in the genus Swietenia. I've never seen mahogany used for bonsai, but your trees look pretty good. You are using the compound leaves correctly, in that each leaf represents a whole branch. Your leaf size is reasonably small. The description for the species has fairly large leaves.

I would like to see yearly updates. As you develop branch ramifications. Nice

 

[SockUnicorn]

 

[Bonsai Nut]

How do you know those are mahogany trees? They don't (to me) look anything like mahogany trees. What they DO look like are Brazilian rain trees.

Won't be the first time I've been wrong... but won't be the first time I've be right, either

 

[SockUnicorn]

How do you know those are mahogany trees? They don't (to me) look anything like mahogany trees. What they DO look like are Brazilian rain trees.

Won't be the first time I've been wrong... but won't be the first time I've be right, either

They are one million percent not BRTs. I have multiple of each and the differences are obvious. This is Sabicu, as told by the nursery owner.

 

[penumbra]

Those are some beautifully designed trees. I can see that they are quite different from my BRT s.

 

[SockUnicorn]

Those are some beautifully designed trees. I can see that they are quite different from my BRT s.

Thank you!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This is Sabicu, as told by the nursery owner.

Well it sounds like the nursery owner fed you a line... sabicu isn't mahogany. It's a Lysiloma - in the false tamarind genus - and is in the legume family with Brazilian Rain Tree.

Don't want to get into an argument about it. Won't be the first time that a nursery owner sells a tree labeled one thing - and uses a different common name for it. Here's what a mahogany leaf looks like. Swietenia macrophylla in this case, though the other two Swietenia species look almost identical.



Another lysiloma to compare your Lysiloma sabicu to. This one is Lysiloma microphylla.

 

[penumbra]

Well it sounds like the nursery owner fed you a line... sabicu isn't mahogany. It's a Lysiloma - in the false tamarind genus - and is in the legume family with Brazilian Rain Tree.

Don't want to get into an argument about it. Won't be the first time that a nursery owner sells a tree labeled one thing - and uses a different common name for it. Here's what a mahogany leaf looks like. Swietenia macrophylla in this case, though the other two Swietenia species look almost identical.

Looks like a very easy mistake to make with my little bit of research. I encourage anyone interested to do the same. Swietenia, or the trees commonly associated with mahogany, are in the Chinaberry group of trees. Again from a quick search, Swietenia trees are not commonly referred to as mahogany but their wood is. It seems the word mahogany is used primarily for the type of lumber these trees produce. Lysiloma trees are indeed a legume just like hundreds of other trees and thousands of shrubs, ground covers, perennial and annual. I guarantee there is a legume growing in your yard. The wood of Lysiloma species is often called horseflesh mahogany and used in the same ways although it is apparently a harder, tougher and more rot resistant wood than the Swietenia.
Woodworkers often run into this sort of cross reference. Consider Rosewood. There is a plant called rosewood from every continent except Antarctica. Also consider zebrawood, yellowood, and many trees of different genus that share common names, frequently based upon the lumber they produce. And most obviously consider Cedar, a common name given to many many plants with a scented and decay resistant wood.
I do not feel that this was an effort to deceive as has been suggested.

 

[SockUnicorn]

When you google Horseflesh Mahogany Lysiloma pops up so maybe it's just the name but that does seem to be the common name

Edit: it's also very clearly related to tamarind, more so than it is to BRT from what I can see.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It seems the word mahogany is used primarily for the type of lumber these trees produce.

Actually, it is properly used for lumber produced from the genus Swietenia (note what Leo said above)

However, since countries have long ago discovered that calling something "mahagony" (whether or not the species is even marginally related to Swietenia) can double the price of their lumber, there is now something called "mahogany" from just about every tropical country on the planet. Africa "mahagony", Phillipines "mahagony", etc. Some of the woods may or may not bare a resemblance to genuine mahogany... but they are not the genuine article. (With the exception being that there are supposedly Swietania plantations in Fiji and India made entirely from transplanted Swietenia trees)

I should almost sticky a thread because we have talked about this subject at least three times previously. Suffice it to say genuine mahogany is quite expensive - and Swietenia mahagoni has not been commercially available since the 1950's. For woodworkers like myself, going into a reputable tropical hardwood store, the lumber is always listed by species, not common name. So there is no such thing as "African mahogany" since I buy it as Entandrophragma cylindricum.

And I do not think the OP was intending to mislead, rather he was just repeating what a misinformed nurseryman was telling him. Apparently the glamor of "mahogany" is now even extending to landscaping material

FWIW, genuine mahogany IS a Florida native, and IS available for sale in the US. You just have to make sure you are buying Swietenia mahagoni. If it isn't called "mahagoni" it isn't the genuine Florida native. The other Swietania species are from Central America.

And to top it all off... I don't consider Swietania mahagoni a particularly suitable tree for bonsai - because it has large compound leaves. But that is a topic for another day, LOL!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

When you google Horseflesh Mahogany Lysiloma pops up so maybe it's just the name but that does seem to be the common name

There is a common native shrub out here in California called "mountain mahogany". A less mahogany-looking plant you will never see

There is even a eucalyptus (E. robusta) that is commonly known as "swamp mahogany". Again... absolutely no relation to genuine mahogany.

Google "Santos mahogany" and you will see tons of products suggesting it is similar to genuine mahogany, when actually it is a balsam tree - Myroxylon balsamum (and is an invasive species from Peru).

The list goes on and on...

 

[penumbra]

Actually, it is properly used for lumber produced from the genus Swietenia

If it comes down to a choice between properly and primarily, the unfortunate fact is properly is often overlooked, not on mahogany alone, but on just about everything. Properly requires judging and most people don't care enough. But of course properly is still the right answer even though often ignored.
There has been a lot of mental gymnastics here on what was a very simple post. c'est la vie

 

[SockUnicorn]

Apparently the Glamor of Mahogany is extending to the US government too.....

https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LYSA5.

Again, I simply stated this was a Horseflesh Mahogany. I did not imply myself, nor expressly state that this was a true Mahogany species.

Just used the common name.

 

[penumbra]

Again, I simply stated this was a Horseflesh Mahogany. I did not imply myself, nor expressly state that this was a true Mahogany species.

Just used the common name.

Its cool. My panties aren't bunched up.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Apparently the Glamor of Mahogany is extending to the US government too.....

https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LYSA5.

Again, I simply stated this was a Horseflesh Mahogany. I did not imply myself, nor expressly state that this was a true Mahogany species.

Just used the common name.

Suffice it to say that it happens to be a personal crusade of mine, since I have bought "mahogany" hardwood that wasn't, and "mahogany" trees that weren't.

But this whole misnaming thing isn't limited to mahogany. There are numerous examples - particularly when $$$ are involved. Mahogany, teak, ebony... if you can call a wood by a different common name, and get people to spend a premium for it, it is going to happen. I happen to really like Texas ebony. It just isn't an ebony Doesn't stop me from liking the tree...

To give you an example:
South American big leaf Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) I can get 8/4 lumber from NY for $12.60 per board foot, plus freight.
Sapele (similar, but not same, lumber that often goes by name of "African Mahogany") I can get 8/4 lumber from NY for $6.30 per board foot, plus freight.
Gaboon ebony 8/4 is $180 per board foot(!)
Macassar ebony 8/4 is $130 per board foot
No wonder many blackwood woodworkers go with Wenge, which is only $26.40 per board foot (8/4 thickness). However... makes you wonder how many wenge pieces show up in the marketplace listed as "ebony"

 

[SockUnicorn]

 

[PABonsai]

I use this as they define what species are mahogany. It's geared towards lumber, but it would be the same concept. After all it's common name has mahogany for a reason (probably to make it sell)

Mahogany Mixups: the Lowdown | The Wood Database

www.wood-database.com

 

[SockUnicorn]

***MAHOGANY TRIGGER WARNING

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Your Lysiloma is filling out nicely !!!!. Beautiful. And I love the bark on this.

I just re-read the whole thread. It illustrates the issue with using common names versus the scientific names. Actually if you had lead with Sabicu, the name the nursery gave you, that would have only lead to Lysiloma, where the "english" name, mahogany, lead down the rabbit hole of all the various species called mahogany. When "horseflesh mahogany" was given, that name did lead to Lysiloma.

But again, your positioning of foliage, so that each compound leaf is "standing in" for a whole branch is well done. Both trees are quite nice. Though I am partial to the slant.