Myths, Misconceptions, and Trivia

[twisted trees]

You're saying that's a myth, right?

Yah.

 

[miker]

Me neither..

Good one Tommy! Lol.

I am though.

...and yeah, my taxonomy tidbits are a snooze fest, sorry twisted trees.

 

[MichaelS]

Mellow Mullet, post: 506411, member: 92"], I don't think that they use as much energy as everyone thinks they do to make flowers and I am really not sure that there is a way to measure it anyway. I have read that flowers are nothing more that specialized leaves anyway.

There would be a way to measure it but you can tell by careful observation. I have consistently noticed weakening after flowering in not only azaleas but all flowering plants. For example, with orchids, allowing a one-growth seedling to flower can set it back 1 year. Sometimes even kill it.
As for specialized leaves, well yes maybe, but flowers take nutrients from the plant and give nothing back whereas leaves make sugars. You can look at flowers as being parasitic. Just like babies in a pregnant woman. Fruit and seeds are even worse.

I am reporting my experience, I have repotted and not removed the buds for years and have not lost a tree from it. I also allow them to bloom every year with no discernible weakening, azaleas grow like weeds. Just saying, removing the buds serves no purpose as far as growth goes. Seen it, done it.

Me too. You won't lose a tree from not doing it. However over say 10 years, there will be a great deal of difference in the vigour of an azalea that was never allowed to flower and one which was every year. This is why it's pretty standard from Japanese instruction to remove flowers etc from trees in training.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

There would be a way to measure it but you can tell by careful observation. I have consistently noticed weakening after flowering in not only azaleas but all flowering plants. For example, with orchids, allowing a one-growth seedling to flower can set it back 1 year. Sometimes even kill it.
As for specialized leaves, well yes maybe, but flowers take nutrients from the plant and give nothing back whereas leaves make sugars. You can look at flowers as being parasitic. Just like babies in a pregnant woman. Fruit and seeds are even worse.



Me too. You won't lose a tree from not doing it. However over say 10 years, there will be a great deal of difference in the vigour of an azalea that was never allowed to flower and one which was every year. This is why it's pretty standard from Japanese instruction to remove flowers etc from trees in training.

Last pass:

Maybe it is different in Australia, who knows? I have been growing azaleas for at least ten years or more in pots and all my life in the ground. Heck, the city I live and grew up in is called the "Azalea City". There is no weakening, they grow like weeds all summer long whether you cut the buds off or let is flower. They are one of the strongest growers that I have, so much so, that I often get tired of pruning them to keep them in shape. There are azaleas growing around my grandmother's house that have been there for 75 years and have bloomed every one of those years (well, I am not 75, but as long as I remember) and are still around, they have not weakened and died.

As for Japan, my fellow club member who actually studied in Japan, said that they did not remove buds from azaleas, unless it was thinning a few out for a better presentation for a show. They did not even remove them from the ones that were being grown out (pre-bonsai). So, I don't know anymore than that, maybe somewhere else in Japan it is done differently. Maybe it is a joke that they played on the rest of the world, getting us to grow an azalea all year long, only to instruct us to remove the buds, depriving us of their beauty; but, I digress. I know that Russell has some beautiful azaleas. There is no quantifying way to measure energy that a flower uses, observation is only subjective. So, I will leave you with this, cut the flowers off whenever you like if think it makes a difference, I will enjoy the ones that my azaleas make and continue to encourage others to do the same.

John

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Last pass:

Maybe it is different in Australia, who knows? I have been growing azaleas for at least ten years or more in pots and all my life in the ground. Heck, the city I live and grew up in is called the "Azalea City". There is no weakening, they grow like weeds all summer long whether you cut the buds off or let is flower. They are one of the strongest growers that I have, so much so, that I often get tired of pruning them to keep them in shape. There are azaleas growing around my grandmother's house that have been there for 75 years and have bloomed every one of those years (well, I am not 75, but as long as I remember) and are still around, they have not weakened and died.

As for Japan, my fellow club member who actually studied in Japan, said that they did not remove buds from azaleas, unless it was thinning a few out for a better presentation for a show. They did not even remove them from the ones that were being grown out (pre-bonsai). So, I don't know anymore than that, maybe somewhere else in Japan it is done differently. Maybe it is a joke that they played on the rest of the world, getting us to grow an azalea all year long, only to instruct us to remove the buds, depriving us of their beauty; but, I digress. I know that Russell has some beautiful azaleas. There is no quantifying way to measure energy that a flower uses, observation is only subjective. So, I will leave you with this, cut the flowers off whenever you like if think it makes a difference, I will enjoy the ones that my azaleas make and continue to encourage others to do the same.

John

Hi Mellow Mullet,
I could not have put that better myself. I like to grow Azaleas because they flower. To grow them for years and not enjoy their beauty, how sad :-(.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

There would be a way to measure it but you can tell by careful observation. I have consistently noticed weakening after flowering in not only azaleas but all flowering plants. For example, with orchids, allowing a one-growth seedling to flower can set it back 1 year. Sometimes even kill it.
As for specialized leaves, well yes maybe, but flowers take nutrients from the plant and give nothing back whereas leaves make sugars. You can look at flowers as being parasitic. Just like babies in a pregnant woman. Fruit and seeds are even worse.



Me too. You won't lose a tree from not doing it. However over say 10 years, there will be a great deal of difference in the vigour of an azalea that was never allowed to flower and one which was every year. This is why it's pretty standard from Japanese instruction to remove flowers etc from trees in training.

Hi @MichaelS ,
there maybe part of what you say which is close to theoretically correct, but from a practical and or personal enjoyment I think you are totally missing the point.
Charles

 

[sorce]

Moss is good - it is a temporary decoration, otherwise of no good use, can actually cause damage..

Myth myth!
Lol!

I'm with "can cause damage", but only for folks who let it run up trunks with bark.

Of course, all moss is different in a sense....or, what it is actually growing on anyway.....

I grab some from behind a garage that grows on top old broken up ashpalt. I plopped a loose patch on some exposed roots of my freshly basketed barberry, and even in the hot hot, it would have bright yeller roots Neath that moss.

I threw some from the same area all in the top of my Freeman Maple, like, an inch worth....
And not a week later it was colonized with roots.

Fuck them fall squirrels...lol!. But.....

Here's the actual myth.

Shohin Need Smaller Soil Particles.

Ok....Moss benefit again....

My


That pot is about 3 1/2 x 1/2 deep.

So I..."used smaller soil particles "

It stayed too wet even in the hot, but would be dead without the moss.

That moss is from the concrete expansion joint material.
That was a life saver, literally, as it would wick the water up to be more easily evaporated.

Tiny ass pot in the hot and there is no need for sticking it in another pot, or a tray of sand.

I think what happens is folks root rot their Shohin roots, only to have them supported by the happy roots in the sand tray.

My happy medium would be regular large sifted DE. And a thinner moss layer like that which grows directly on brick or concrete. Or DE, which I have a patch on a ficus I will try and stretch out for use next season.

Anyway....it's all a myth to me!

I figured we would have needed the peace pot by now!

Sorce

 

[Dav4]

I've come to the conclusion that the actual act of the flower opening costs little to nothing energy wise to the azalea (the real cost was in producing the flower bud). I do believe that allowing an azalea to be covered in flowers for weeks on end each year- which blocks a large portion of the leaves from the sun and reduces photosynthesis- could weaken a tree, particularly if they're being aggressively pruned. Just a thought.

 

[twisted trees]

Myth: The "New American" bonsai style is new.

 

[leatherback]

Tropical Bonsai like Full Sun - Bullshit unless you Bonsai Banana trees or Bird of Paradise, get the drift?

Hm.. "tropicals" is as vague as "Temperates". Ficus LOVE AND PREFER the full sun, assuming you water and fertilize sufficient..

 

[GrimLore]

Hm.. "tropicals" is as vague as "Temperates". Ficus LOVE AND PREFER the full sun, assuming you water and fertilize sufficient..

Ficus here do FAR better under canopy will 2 - 3 hours of full sun in the morning. They are shaded the rest of the day. Indoors we use low level T8's and they do nicely all Winter. I would have to ask Crystal exactly what types are in for the Winter right now but I can say for certain there are seven varieties and a couple she has had for over 18 years...

Grimmy

 

[rockm]

Some trivia--

There are more tree species in a given Appalachian Mountain cove forest than in all of Europe. The Appalachian mountains are one of the most biodiverse areas on the planet.
http://www.blueridgeheritage.com/heritage/natural/biodiversity

Many eastern North American tree species' closest relative species are in China and vice versa.--Eastern U.S. and China were once joined before breaking apart

https://www.worldwildlife.org/ecoregions/na0403
http://www.discoverlife.org/co/


Most of the oak species on the planet live in North America.
North of Mexico, there are 90 species of oak. Texas has 60 species within its borders. Mexico has 160 species, while China has 100. Europe has about 22.

 

[M. Frary]

When a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it,it still makes a hell of a racket.

 

[Victorim]

When a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it,it still makes a hell of a racket.

Oh? Quantum says maybe not..

 

[BillsBayou]

Oh? Quantum says maybe not..

What does an Australian airline know about trees?

 

[music~maker]

Biggest myth in bonsai: turface is a good soil component.

Oh oh! Now I did it!

Second biggest myth: turface is not a good soil component! <shots fired!>

=)

In all seriousness, as part of a mix, turface is perfectly fine. I have a whole yard full of happy trees sitting in a turface-based mix. I get strong growth each season, solid root development, and none of the issues that people report when using turface only.

My exact mix is roughly 2:1:1 turface:granite:metromix. Been using it for many years, and learned about it from my local bonsai shop, which pots thousands of healthy trees in it.

Every time I see someone mention turface as being no good, my first thought is either "well, you must not be using it correctly then ..." or "oh, you must have read that Michael Hagedorn blog post ..."

My experience with it couldn't be more different to what he describes in that blog post, btw. Perhaps I'm just one of the lucky few to make it work, who knows?

What I do know is this ... I use a lot of soil each season, and it would probably cost me double or triple to use akadama/pumice/lava rock than it does with my turface mix. I'd rather spend that extra money on either trees or pots. Interestingly, I've had more issues with broken down akadama clogging up root balls than anything. Akadama seems to turn to mush pretty quickly in my area. I understand why some folks think that's a feature, but for me it's a bit of a bug.

 

[Dav4]

Second biggest myth: turface is not a good soil component! <shots fired!>

=)

In all seriousness, as part of a mix, turface is perfectly fine. I have a whole yard full of happy trees sitting in a turface-based mix. I get strong growth each season, solid root development, and none of the issues that people report when using turface only.

My exact mix is roughly 2:1:1 turface:granite:metromix. Been using it for many years, and learned about it from my local bonsai shop, which pots thousands of healthy trees in it.

Every time I see someone mention turface as being no good, my first thought is either "well, you must not be using it correctly then ..." or "oh, you must have read that Michael Hagedorn blog post ..."

My experience with it couldn't be more different to what he describes in that blog post, btw. Perhaps I'm just one of the lucky few to make it work, who knows?

What I do know is this ... I use a lot of soil each season, and it would probably cost me double or triple to use akadama/pumice/lava rock than it does with my turface mix. I'd rather spend that extra money on either trees or pots. Interestingly, I've had more issues with broken down akadama clogging up root balls than anything. Akadama seems to turn to mush pretty quickly in my area. I understand why some folks think that's a feature, but for me it's a bit of a bug.

Luckily, @Adair M is on a plane somewhere over Nebraska right now, so you're safe for the time being.

I used to use a similar mix when I lived in the Boston area back in the day. The quartz/granite proved too heavy in my larger pots, so I got rid of it. Still have lots of trees growing out in Turface, too, but I've got lots in the imported stuff, as well.

 

[MichaelS]

John[/QUOTE]

Hi @MichaelS ,
there maybe part of what you say which is close to theoretically correct, but from a practical and or personal enjoyment I think you are totally missing the point.
Charles

I'm afraid you might be the one missing the point. I used that example to illustrate a point. I am not suggesting you remove flowers every year. Only that the option is there. I do suggest you remove flowers/buds if you intend to repot before flowering to reduce stress from root loss. I have been growing azaleas for over thirty years (not so much now) including breeding new varieties and growing from seed. Mr Gondo - an satsuki specialist - advises to repot before flowering, to remove the buds when you do and only to let them flower every 2 or 3 years. Not repot after flowering like all the books say to do. This is the best way to quickly develop a specimen. If you want to look at flowers every year you can but your plant will not develop as quickly.
I only grow Kinsai now commercially. At one stage I put in several hundred cuttings per year. I remove all flower buds from all plants each year which gives them about 2 months of extra growing time. I am interested in developing the trunk. If you only have one or two I can understand the reluctance to do this. If you have 20 or more it's not so much of a deal. If you want any plant to develop fast, forget about flowers.

 

[MichaelS]

PS to the above. The local satsuki club just has their show. Flowers everywhere. My plants have new growth already 6 inches long. Do the math!

 

[Cadillactaste]

You don't need to water your trees once they go dormant... Myth.