Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822

[Timbo]

Where are you buying it from? Do you have the FASTENAL chain of stores in MI? They sell a 25 lb bag for $10.

O'reilly's is the only place I know of around here.
Looks like there is a Fastenal in Traverse city

 

[Captnignit]

I was able to get Optisorb locally from https://www.grainger.com/product/EP-MINERALS-Universal-Diatomaceous-Earth-6RKJ5

 

[TN_Jim]

...alright, well, 615 hundo 8822 ditch J.v 8 days
was digging this tree prior to last frost a bad idea?

 

[Timbo]

I dunno if it will matter...i would have waited a little bit though.

 

[TN_Jim]

I dunno if it will matter...i would have waited a little bit though.

That's what I thought but wasn't exactly sure, thanks @Timbo. Things are blooming early, and we've had a warm spell, but plants don't predict weather patterns until after they have occurred I suppose. Believe I have a fever for spring.
I am going to watch this tree. This would be the first time I have planted anything in 100% inorganic, especially a single substrate type. A good experiment indeed, supported by others here, but have not seen anyone from my specific region doing this.

I am curious, how long after initial harvest should I wait to feed it, or at all?...Will begin with water soluble inorganic 18-18-21 miracle grow because that's what I have on hand at the moment.

 

[sorce]

am curious, how long after initial harvest should I wait to feed it, or at all?.

Walter Feeds everything heavy straight away. You don't need to wait.

But if you wanted to wait....I'd wait till you see growth.

But why wait?

I would use fish though! Alaska 5-1-1.

I find a lot of scientifical truth about not fertilizing new transplants.

I watched a thing on bears in Alaska once...
Showed how they bring salmon up the banks and eat the brain and eggs and leave the carcass....they did a time lapse on the decaying carcass....

The flick was really convincing....

But....


These are rather convincing as well!

My thing...that's how IT WORKS!

Chemicals....eeeew....just say it!

Take Yellowstone for instance....

Sure it was nice for years without wolves..
The slow change to a "wolfless wonder" went unnoticed in our joy to be rid of the wolves. And Old Faithful remained .....faithful!

But Now with the return of the wolves..
We realize how IT worked!
Fields and fields of flowers again, new river patterns, more wildlife...
Balance!

Anyway....
You can use chemicals for a wolfless tree that IS still beautiful.

Or use Fish, do it how IT WORKS!
And realize magnificence !

See it is Subtle.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

You can use chemicals for a wolfless tree

Let's call it a Fishless tree....

So...

The slow change to a "wolfless wonder" went unnoticed in our joy to be rid of the wolves.

Is...

The slow change to a "Fishless Wonder" went unnoticed in our joy to witness growth.

Sorce

 

[Timbo]

I use the Alaska liquid fish and a organic bat guano together, in a 2 gallon spray container, it gets all 3 N-P-K that way if i want it to get it in the soil faster.
Problem is, it stinks and draws flies/hornets...but goes away fast outside. I'd like to use it inside but i can't stand the smell.
Otherwise i just use organic fertilizer. I know a lot of people on here don't like organic fertilizer though.

 

[milehigh_7]

Walter Feeds everything heavy straight away. You don't need to wait.

But if you wanted to wait....I'd wait till you see growth.

But why wait?

I would use fish though! Alaska 5-1-1.

I find a lot of scientifical truth about not fertilizing new transplants.

I watched a thing on bears in Alaska once...
Showed how they bring salmon up the banks and eat the brain and eggs and leave the carcass....they did a time lapse on the decaying carcass....

The flick was really convincing....

But....
These are rather convincing as well!

My thing...that's how IT WORKS!

Chemicals....eeeew....just say it!

Take Yellowstone for instance....

Sure it was nice for years without wolves..
The slow change to a "wolfless wonder" went unnoticed in our joy to be rid of the wolves. And Old Faithful remained .....faithful!

But Now with the return of the wolves..
We realize how IT worked!
Fields and fields of flowers again, new river patterns, more wildlife...
Balance!

Anyway....
You can use chemicals for a wolfless tree that IS still beautiful.

Or use Fish, do it how IT WORKS!
And realize magnificence !

See it is Subtle.

Sorce

I do believe you have finally lost your mind... Step.Away.From.The.Bong

 

[sorce]

Problem is, it stinks and draws flies/hornets

Backwards world!

Wiki..."Given that some of their prey are considered pests, hornets may be considered beneficial under some circumstances."

I get wasps.

Wiki..."They hunt a wide variety of prey, mainly other insects (including otherHymenoptera), both larvae and adults. The Pompilidae specialize in catching spiders to provision their nests. Some social wasps are omnivorous, feeding on fallen fruit, nectar, and carrion such as dead insects."

Beneficial!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I do believe you have finally lost your mind... Step.Away.From.The.Bong

Lol! That?

Not the thing where I said "if I need more NPK I just pretend the 5-1-1 on the fish bottle is lying to me, and it works" ?

Hehehehehe!

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Simple @sorce,

find out if your fish source is from fish processing for food, or
fish just being killed to make fertiliser.

From what is being observed 5 to 6 N and 1 P 1 K , plus micro if lifted
from a composted organic is enough.
This is all a bonsai in branchlet / leaf refinement or "finished' needs
to live a healthy, happy life.
So perhaps all you need is an oil seed meal that delivers 6 to 8 N ....
to the soil.

Remember N as ammonia or other can leave dry, inorganic soil
for the sky.

The fertilisers we are getting, from overseas are beginning to reflect the above.
No more 20-20-20
And Scott has an organic lawn fertiliser as well. 7 N 1P 2K see below.
So you could try that in the Bonsai practice.

It is becoming much simpler to do Bonsai.
Good Day
Anthony

http://living.thebump.com/scotts-fertilizer-ingredients-14602.html

"Scott's Garden Fertilizers
All-purpose, water-soluble Miracle-Gro is described as posing minimal risk to people. Its fertilizer ratio is 24-8-16, and it is applied by mixing 1 tablespoon of fertilizer with 1 gallon of water. The organic version of Miracle-Gro has a fertilizer ratio of 7-1-2, and is derived from poultry litter and feather meal. Osmocote slow-release plant food's fertilizer analysis is 19-6-12. It is chemically derived from ammonium nitrate, ammonium phosphate, calcium phosphate and potassium sulfate."

 

[MarcelloS]

Have you seen these two experiments by Appalachian Bonsai? As a summary it shows that DE has better water retention than Akadama and much better resistance to freeze-thaw cycles.

I was shocked to see how bad both Akadama and Pumice broke down with the freeze-thaw experiment, becoming a paste that impeded drainage.

Makes me think about what Morten Albek said on the ”To Akadama or not to Akadama?” article at Bonsai Empire (https://www.bonsaiempire.com/blog/akadama-soil):

”Not using akadama is because it easily breaks down in freezing periods. Even the harder akadama types are not resistant over longer time spans. Akadama is a clay soil, and will be very compact and poor of oxygen, harming the roots when broken down. After only one or two seasons the akadama will break down and begin decreasing its value is the experience I have. Trees imported from Japan growing in akadama soil have all proven very big problems surviving. The Japanese climate, and their lacking availability of other soil types makes akadama their choice. The humid Japanese climate during summer and frequent repotting of trees, practically makes akadama a favorite choice of Bonsai soil there (also economically compared to importing soils). So if you live in an area comparable to the Japanese climate akadama might be your choice, or maybe you find another source better suited (both practically and economically).”​

​

Being in Canada and after seeing the videos above makes me think whether Akadama is really a good option here. I do have access to it. And, although it is certainly more expensive than most soil types, it is feasible for me. The real question is: Is it right for me?

On a slightly different note, I was very intrigued with Coconut Coir not breaking down and keeping drainage, as well as being water retentive. Everywhere I look says to stay clear of it. It certainly has problems (high K and Na content for instance), but these can be mitigated. Any thoughts there?

Also, how about these Growstones?

Seems like it could replace Pumice?

Cheers.

 

[milehigh_7]

Have you seen these two experiments by Appalachian Bonsai? As a summary it shows that DE has better water retention than Akadama and much better resistance to freeze-thaw cycles.

I was shocked to see how bad both Akadama and Pumice broke down with the freeze-thaw experiment, becoming a paste that impeded drainage.

Makes me think about what Morten Albek said on the ”To Akadama or not to Akadama?” article at Bonsai Empire (https://www.bonsaiempire.com/blog/akadama-soil):

”Not using akadama is because it easily breaks down in freezing periods. Even the harder akadama types are not resistant over longer time spans. Akadama is a clay soil, and will be very compact and poor of oxygen, harming the roots when broken down. After only one or two seasons the akadama will break down and begin decreasing its value is the experience I have. Trees imported from Japan growing in akadama soil have all proven very big problems surviving. The Japanese climate, and their lacking availability of other soil types makes akadama their choice. The humid Japanese climate during summer and frequent repotting of trees, practically makes akadama a favorite choice of Bonsai soil there (also economically compared to importing soils). So if you live in an area comparable to the Japanese climate akadama might be your choice, or maybe you find another source better suited (both practically and economically).”​

​

Being in Canada and after seeing the videos above makes me think whether Akadama is really a good option here. I do have access to it. And, although it is certainly more expensive than most soil types, it is feasible for me. The real question is: Is it right for me?

On a slightly different note, I was very intrigued with Coconut Coir not breaking down and keeping drainage, as well as being water retentive. Everywhere I look says to stay clear of it. It certainly has problems (high K and Na content for instance), but these can be mitigated. Any thoughts there?

Also, how about these Growstones?

Seems like it could replace Pumice?

Cheers.

I have listed pretty much all of this info on the chart comparing soil properties. Very few people would deny the benefits of akadama, however, the real question comes in when it comes to its affordability and availability. This is why pros like Ryan have begun to search for alternatives with similar properties. In many ways DE beats akadama both in water retention (DE holds its weight in water) and in CEC. Yes the calcined DE holds up better "kiln dried" such as optisorb will break down in about the same time frame as akadama. When Optisorb is wet, you can smash it between your fingers like clay.

Coco coir is the devil. You will have fungus gnats and various types of root and crown rot if you use it.

 

[Adamantium]

When Optisorb is wet, you can smash it between your fingers like clay

I noticed that after I bought it, and was kind of bummed. On the bright side, it held up really well to repeated freeze thaw cycles.

 

[milehigh_7]

I noticed that after I bought it, and was kind of bummed. On the bright side, it held up really well to repeated freeze thaw cycles.

I think Optisorb is okay for 1 year I would not use it alone however as the soil structure will break down. I would use pumice or lava with it.

 

[Adamantium]

I think Optisorb is okay for 1 year I would not use it alone however as the soil structure will break down. I would use pumice or lava with it.

I did do a roughly 50/50 lavaptisorb. I guess I'll just repeat yearly. Not a huge deal for me, honestly. All my trees are pre-bonsai, so I want as much growth as possible.

 

[Adamantium]

Hahaha didn't mean to make that face, but I'm gonna leave it as is.

 

[Captnignit]

Have you seen these two experiments by Appalachian Bonsai? As a summary it shows that DE has better water retention than Akadama and much better resistance to freeze-thaw cycles.

I was shocked to see how bad both Akadama and Pumice broke down with the freeze-thaw experiment, becoming a paste that impeded drainage.

Makes me think about what Morten Albek said on the ”To Akadama or not to Akadama?” article at Bonsai Empire (https://www.bonsaiempire.com/blog/akadama-soil):

”Not using akadama is because it easily breaks down in freezing periods. Even the harder akadama types are not resistant over longer time spans. Akadama is a clay soil, and will be very compact and poor of oxygen, harming the roots when broken down. After only one or two seasons the akadama will break down and begin decreasing its value is the experience I have. Trees imported from Japan growing in akadama soil have all proven very big problems surviving. The Japanese climate, and their lacking availability of other soil types makes akadama their choice. The humid Japanese climate during summer and frequent repotting of trees, practically makes akadama a favorite choice of Bonsai soil there (also economically compared to importing soils). So if you live in an area comparable to the Japanese climate akadama might be your choice, or maybe you find another source better suited (both practically and economically).”​

​

Being in Canada and after seeing the videos above makes me think whether Akadama is really a good option here. I do have access to it. And, although it is certainly more expensive than most soil types, it is feasible for me. The real question is: Is it right for me?

On a slightly different note, I was very intrigued with Coconut Coir not breaking down and keeping drainage, as well as being water retentive. Everywhere I look says to stay clear of it. It certainly has problems (high K and Na content for instance), but these can be mitigated. Any thoughts there?

Also, how about these Growstones?

Seems like it could replace Pumice?

Cheers.

I feel like that freeze-thaw cycle test has some flaws in it's reasoning. Unless you live in areas where you drop down to -110F at night and go back above freezing during the day, it's assuming way more severe conditions than what people live in. Temp changes are also a lot more gradual than that test allows for. All of these elements would play a major factor in how soils hold up. As a comparison of components to one another, it's useful to know what is more durable. But conclusions outside that don't really hold weight imo.

 

[BrianBay9]

I feel like that freeze-thaw cycle test has some flaws in it's reasoning. Unless you live in areas where you drop down to -110F at night and go back above freezing during the day, it's assuming way more severe conditions than what people live in. Temp changes are also a lot more gradual than that test allows for. All of these elements would play a major factor in how soils hold up. As a comparison of components to one another, it's useful to know what is more durable. But conclusions outside that don't really hold weight imo.

When I lived in Wisconsin one had to be careful to keep frozen pots put away long enough in the spring. If I put them back on benches too early I could easily go through 10 - 12 freeze/thaw cycles in any spring.