Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822

michaelj

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My point is that Akadama for instance is mined, sorted to regular sized particles, sterilized... Specifically TO BE bonsai soil [...]. Oil Dry is made to soak up oil spills. Turface is made to cover baseball fields and dry up puddles.

So what?

I've spent money on bags of stuff called "bonsai soil" that was sorted, sifted, etc., etc., specifically to be bonsai soil, and I've had plants grow less vigorously in that stuff than it grows in straight pumice or straight DE. The purpose is meaningless. Only the performance matters.
 

sorce

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@Eric Group

Thank you for making your points receiving mine, and staying on topic.
Don't get worked up Bro! I am totally with you! Did you mean the Smoky Link I posted a few posts back? About cation exchange?

Love that article.

If we can keep this peaceful, we won't have to worry about reading a bunch of nonsense to find good info.

This is to help people make informed decisions about soil.

No soil is perfect!

And in the end, arguing about dirt, well,
Why? It is dirt!

I promise I'm trying to find more DE cons, but there are few!

Sorce
 

sorce

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Only the performance matters.

Eric Group has already said that himself!

You all are going to prompt the "reading forums 101" post.

(Lights flickering) thinking caps only!

I love it!

Sorce
 

michaelj

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Eric Group has already said that himself!

You all are going to prompt the "reading forums 101" post.

Sort of. But beside the point. If one concedes elsewhere that performance matters, but then goes and says "My point is X", and "X" has nothing to do with performance*, it is fair game to take issue with "X". My point is not just that performance matters, it's that ONLY performance when you are talking about whether something is better or worse, suitable or unsuitable.

Viagra was made specifically to treat hypertension. Developed to treat hypertension. My people focused on curing hypertension. But that's not an argument against recommending it to someone whose johnson stops working. Similarly, the fact that oil dri is marketed to sop up oil spills is not a reason to disparage it as a growing medium. And, although my experience with turface is that it's a terrible medium (I'm never touching the stuff again), at least in my climate, the fact that it's made to cover baseball fields is an argument with zero value.

If one is to scream in all caps about someone missing the point, and say that their "ignorance on this subject is ASTOUNDING", and then identify what point should have been driven home, then "the point" ought to be the point that matters, don't you think?

* I omitted from the quote the part where Eric included a relevant point, because I didn't take exception to that part, or to a lot of other points he made in this thread.
 

Eric Group

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@Eric Group

Thank you for making your points receiving mine, and staying on topic.
Don't get worked up Bro! I am totally with you! Did you mean the Smoky Link I posted a few posts back? About cation exchange?

Love that article.

If we can keep this peaceful, we won't have to worry about reading a bunch of nonsense to find good info.

This is to help people make informed decisions about soil.

No soil is perfect!

And in the end, arguing about dirt, well,
Why? It is dirt!

I promise I'm trying to find more DE cons, but there are few!

Sorce
Yes sir... I read his posts on cation exchange previously. I honestly have learned quite a bit from reading Smoke's posts here and on his blog over the years. He jokes around about foeminas a lot, but he has a lot of good info also. :)

I will happily keep it positive from here on out. Thanks.
 

sorce

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For the record,

We ain't too far off positive!

Sorce
 

M. Frary

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I'll be trying lava,pumice ,DE and or bonsai jack bonsai block this year for trees going into pots. Probably going to toss a little charcoal in too. I have 3 trees in this type of soil or very similar. A jack pine a Seiju elm and a scots pine.
 

CWTurner

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I'd still recommend it in some cases, but once I started using larger particles sizes
...
The 8822 that I get sifts out to 95% <1/8". The other 5% is larger than 1/8". A bit of dust, but no waste from fines.
CW
 

music~maker

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Excuse me, but- You Selectivy quoted me in an attempt to mis-represent the words that i posted and implied I had said or meant something that sounded completely ignorant, so, YEAH... I think it is pretty clear you were trying to stir shit up... Then, you did it again in this post! You make it seem like I came right out and called you ignorant.. There was an "if" qualification made prior to the PORTION you chose to quote- which again is an attempt to Mis-represent the meaning of my words and make me seem like "the bad guy" here. You can play it off any way you wish, but that pretty much pisses me off. Sorry. It does. I am a pretty laid back even tempered person most the time, but the way you are responding to me and twisting my words is downright obnoxious. In my eyes that is an attempt to escalate things.

As for your comments on Akadama... If a fussy watering schedule is an issue for you... Well- I have trees that need to be watered 2-3 times a day in the heat of the summer sometimes... Believe me, I get it! I used to rely more on organic ingredients to avoid having to water my trees as often, but... Since I grasped what I feel is the biggest benefit of a good inorganic mix, the health and vigor of my trees has improved dramatically. See, if you have a bunch of heavy organics it is possible to over water (though difficult and I think over watering is the most over- exaggerated health concern for trees in Bonsai- UNDER WATERING is the rampant killer of trees especially among newbies IMO)... It is also possible to get too comfortable not watering every day and wind up leaving your trees alone too long and letting them dry out... A good, open inorganic mix makes it virtually impossible to over-water! You CAN water on a schedule, that schedule is EVERY DAY during the summer... It also makes it very hard to over fertilize if you are using organic ferts and don't just go insanely overboard! Lots of water, lots of nutrients.. That is a pretty easy schedule for watering and nutrients- harder to make mistakes that are dangerous for your trees... It is a good way to go. Akadama breaking down has not caused a problem for any of my trees. I have some in mixes with Ak for about two years now, and the only ones that have had any break down were trees where I disturbed the soil soon after watering and crushed it manually myself... They still never showed much in the way of changes in water absorption or drainage.

Sure, trees CAN grow in all sorts of stuff. I am far from an exclusive user of these hyped up Japanese ingredients... In fact I only really use them in trees that are farther along in development/ my best trees. Personally I am not going to spend the money it takes to fill large pots with those soil ingredients or even turface/ DE for that matter.. So I use my own potting soil mix for growing trees out. That is- to me- the most difficult part of soil discussion- different people, in different locations talking about trees at varying degrees of development... Leads to a lot of disagreement, arguing and in the end- most people are just going to say "I like my way, I am not changing" in the end anyway...

Personally, I was a turface using anti-Akadama guy myself a couple years a go- "it is too expensive, turface works fine for me, my trees are growing fine so why switch..." Until I actually tried a good mix of Akadama/ lava/ pumice. You can only learn so much from reading about this sort of stuff. Until you have a few trees sitting on your bench growing in it, you will not understand or willingly accept the differences and benefits.

Turns out the Internet is terrible at tone. I was genuinely just trying to add something to the discussion, not trying to stir shit up.

The reason for the selective quoting was simply to highlight the point I was addressing for context, not as some sort of gotcha or manipulative way to make you out to be the bad guy. I agreed with most of the rest of what you were saying, so saw no point in quoting it all.

TBH, I was a little taken aback by the all caps "astounding ignorance" comment, but I think we were just misunderstanding each other a bit. I'm more or less unoffendable, so it's all good. Water under the bridge ...

You do make very legit points, especially on over/underwatering. Underwatering is undoubtedly one of the big reasons beginners kills trees, as is using poorly draining soil that compounds the problem.

The mix I use is mostly inorganic for that reason. It can take being watered every day, and I prefer to, but has just enough organics in it to hold a little extra moisture if I need it to.

It's definitely not some thing I made up - it's professional bonsai soil from the local shop. It's what they use.

I don't mind having trees that need water 2-3 times a day in the summer, but I do travel for work occasionally, so I like giving a little margin of error to folks who water my trees, since none of them are bonsai people and I've learned the hard way to make it as easy as possible or come back to dying or dead trees.

Seems to work out fine - I've been using it for many years and my trees thrive in it. It does get a bit expensive though, as I do usually use it for growing out anything I deem a "serious project". Basically, if it's in a nursery pot, I usually try to get it in good soil within a year or so of getting it.

I like growing trunks, so in practice that means I have lots of nursery stock projects going on at any give time. I do occasionally look for cheaper alternatives for growing out stock, but haven't found anything I really like better yet, or that I'd trust for more than a season or two.
 

KennedyMarx

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...
The 8822 that I get sifts out to 95% <1/8". The other 5% is larger than 1/8". A bit of dust, but no waste from fines.
CW

I only use 1/8" sized particles as top dressing, 1/4" sizes particles for underneath. That's for junipers, pines, and ficus. I'm still trying to figure out the best mix for maples. I started a new job this past summer and now I have a much longer period between daily waterings, unlike before where I started and ended my days earlier so I could water in the afternoon if the trees were drying out.
 

CWTurner

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When you say 1/4" do you mean particles that won't sift through a 1/4" screen, or particles that DO sift through a 1/4", but not 1/8"?
 

KennedyMarx

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I'm talking about particles that when placed next to a measuring tape measure about 1/4" in size.

I don't have any NAPA on hand, but I have some Turface laying around, and it's the same size/shape, so I took a picture with the different sizes of akadama for comparison.
 

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sorce

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@KennedyMarx , though we've had some easy summers in the last 2, the Oil Dry has allowed me 13 hours gone with just a bit of Wilt on poorly rooted new collects.

With it on top only, I think you'll get by ok, less wind in, and at least a couple hours of extra wet up top.

I hope your schedule remains ok!

@music~maker @Eric Group

Thank you Gentleman!

Sorce
 

clevetromba

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Akadama, lava rock, and pumice. Sometimes I substitute chunky horticultural perlite for pumice. For growing out I use generally use chunky perlite with pine bark as per Brent Walston's method.
In my area pumice and lava rock are just as pricey as Akadama. This year I started using Growstones, pearlite and coco coir in equal parts. So far so good. I did purchase some pumice to try out next year. Not sure what I'll mix it with, but it's too expensive to use straight.
 

BrianBay9

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In my area pumice and lava rock are just as pricey as Akadama. This year I started using Growstones, pearlite and coco coir in equal parts. So far so good. I did purchase some pumice to try out next year. Not sure what I'll mix it with, but it's too expensive to use straight.

I tried the coco products and regretted it. The chipmunks and squirrels were convinced there were chocolate bars in those pots, and they'd find 'em if they only dug often and deep enough!
 

sorce

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I tried the coco products and regretted it. The chipmunks and squirrels were convinced there were chocolate bars in those pots, and they'd find 'em if they only dug often and deep enough!

That's the kind of insight I'm looking for!

Thank you!

Sorce
 

barrosinc

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I have never touched NAPA 8822 type material, nor turface... but if it would be sold here I would most definitely try it out in a mix.
I am paying like 2 dollars a pound for red lava and pumice. I could go and get it 600 miles and load a truck with 500kg or so for the cost of gas and tolls... That might happen... might.
 

ColinFraser

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I tried the coco products . . . chocolate bars in those pots
This seems like a good place to mention that there are two completely different materials often sold as "coco." As you alluded to, one of them is mulch derived from the same plant that gives us chocolate; however, much more common is a product derived from coconut husks. When you see the word "coir" along with the coco name, it is generally in reference to the coconut product, which is completely different.

I have no experience with either one in a bonsai mix, but I have used the coir with orchids and in dart-frog terrariums.
 

clevetromba

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Yes, the coconut husk is the product I'm using. I haven't had any problem with animals digging through it until the last few weeks. I've seen blue jays out there perched on the surface of the soil, and I've seen small holes dug into it.
 
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